(S9/E3) Postdocs as Innovators: Shaping Research Culture at the University of Leeds

Introduction [: 00:00:04

Welcome to the Research Culture Uncovered podcast, where in every episode, we explore what is research culture, and what should it be? You'll hear thoughts and opinions from a range of contributors to help you change research culture into what you want it to be.

Ruth Winden [: 00:00:24

Welcome to another careers focused episode. My name is Ruth Winden, and I'm the Careers with Research Consultant at the University of Leeds. Today, we hear directly from 3 postdocs at Leeds. They are part of a group of researchers who've just won Research England funding for their innovative career development program. Welcome and huge congratulations, Laurin McDowell, Jessica Swanson, and James Warren.

What a fantastic outcome of your bid. And before I ask you to introduce yourselves and we dive into the project a little bit further, I just want to emphasise why I think this is such an important initiative. In researcher development, we work closely with our researchers in partnership to help them manage their professional development.

Ruth Winden [: 00:01:11

And despite our best efforts to work in close partnership, most of our initiatives are led by researcher developers like me. But your project is different because you as postdocs have spearheaded and driven this project from the initial idea to gaining support across the university and securing the necessary funding. So you will be leading and project managing the program whilst our team in researcher development will be consultants, contributors, and of course, supporters. That's a very different approach to researcher development. It's a huge shift in ownership, also in responsibility and workload. And we'll get into that in a little moment. But before I get too far ahead of myself, it's time for you to introduce yourselves. Jessica, do you want to start? And then Laurin and then James?

Jessica Swanson [: 00:02:02

Hi. I'm Jess. I've been a postdoc at the university for 6 years, and I'm one of the FBS postdoc. [FBS = Faculty of Biological Sciences]

Laurin McDowall [: 00:02:08

Hi. I'm Laurin. I'm also a postdoc. I work in the School of Biology on insect farming, and I am also a postdoc rep.

James Warren [: 00:02:16

Hi. I'm James. I'm also a postdoc. I sit across The Faculty of Biological Sciences and the School of Mechanical Engineering in the Institute of Bio Medical and Biological Engineering. And I sit on a couple of committees, one within FBS on their Faculty Research Innovation committee, but also on the Early Career Researcher Development Steering group, along with Ruth herself.

Ruth Winden [: 00:02:42

Yeah. So thanks so much for coming onto the podcast today. I know you well. I've known you for years, and I was so, so pleased for you that you got the funding for this bid because we know how competitive it is. And it's obviously a really strong bid. I'm very excited to work with you over the coming year, but you're taking the lead. And so for our listeners, I just wanted to explore a little bit, you know, what is the problem you're trying to solve with this project? Who wants to come in on that one?

James Warren [: 00:03:11

I'll jump in. So as part of our involvement with with FBS's postdoc reps and the postdoc association, we we often hear that postdocs coming into the university are transitioning from PhD to postdoc. They're very unaware of where the information for their career development is, either that they didn't know it existed, they don't know how to find it, or sometimes it's a little bit confusing what's relevant. And the problem we want to address in this project is trying to make that information more accessible and more concise. So rather than it being spread over multiple different groups and resources, it's all in one local place that we can direct and other faculties and other groups can direct them to that center and access it and take ownership of their development rather than always being reactive to opportunities they can plan and find and ask for support to develop themselves.

Ruth Winden [: 00:04:10

That's obviously music to our ears in research and development because it's all about, you know, being aware of what's out there. And we do have so much at Leeds, haven't we? I I totally understand. It can be confusing. There's so many different opportunities to learn and grow and develop. And then at the same time, also, you know, being proactive because you have heard me say this many times, you know, when researchers are so, so busy and I understand that, so often they think about their career development too late. You know, basically 2 or 3 months before they need to move onto a new contract, find a new research project. You know, they come to me and say, what do I do now? So that's really fantastic that you're really helping to signpost people and make it really proactive. And then there is another element to this, isn't there, to this bid? Who wants to explain that? Because as a fan of professional, associations and accreditations, I got very excited about this one.

Laurin McDowall [: 00:05:00

I can jump in with this. So, obviously, there is a number of postdocs that maybe start to think about leaving academia, and exploring other options, outside that. And one of, you know, the aspects that can help them is having some sort of professional accreditation if they want to move into industry, for example. So part of this bid is also to, try and get some professional bodies in, to speak about what, it entails, and how people might go about, getting some of these accreditations.

Ruth Winden [: 00:05:41

And there is a real gap, isn't there, as you have identified? And that's really what the programme is is trying to help fill, which is fantastic. Jess, do you want to add something to what Laurin and James have said?

Jessica Swanson [: 00:05:53

Yeah. In addition to getting sort of, accreditation, we're also, going to try and test some professional qualification courses. It's come up a few times with post docs to see if we can get some qualifications that would help us transfer to non research careers in the future as well, to sort of bridge that gap as well.

Ruth Winden [: 00:06:13

Absolutely. And and I think project management is high on your agenda, isn't it? I mean yeah, I always look at you as researchers. You are such strong project managers. Otherwise, you couldn't do your research. And, you know, how can you build on that and make it a transferable skill, but also get recognition for all these wonderful skills that you have, you know, through, for instance, PRINCE 2 accreditation. So, you know, I've worked with some at the university on that in in the past. And, and I think that's you know, it made a big difference to their career development.

Ruth Winden [: 00:06:42

So I thought that was fantastic. So being proactive, you know, getting opportunities, getting signposted, I think one thing that I also thought you've done so well is I mean, this obviously been brewing for a long time, hasn't it? It it wasn't like a last minute, oh, I have an idea. Let's put this in. Tell me more about the support you've got from the university.. Because when I look at your bid, it's really interesting how broad you've gone. Yes, there's me and there's Taryn, but there are plenty more people who you're reaching out to to help you make this work.

James Warren [: 00:07:14

So I think because at Leeds we are lucky that we do have all these different organisations that individually try and address an aspect where it might be ODPL for training support, both academic and non. You've got RIS, Research Innovation Services, which help for supporting fellowships and grants. And then you've also got the business engagement, the entrepreneurship team. And they're all great separately, but if you're not aware of them or who to contact, that is one of the big problems. And we've been lucky that because of our involvement with the postdoc association, also our longevity here, we we've been here quite a while, so we know quite a few people. And that's allowed us to identify the key people within those teams that are supportive. And it's made us realize that there's a lot of all resources are there, and there are people who want to help, but trying to get them into one place under one thing was just too difficult to do without a project to do it. And I think we've been very lucky that we've had some support from all these different organizations, either through directly writing it, such as, yourself, Ruth, but also people that have provided support if you're successful to integrate with their existing programmes, such as the entrepreneurship team that are happy to support the skills that they're trying to develop in their upcoming programme of work.

James Warren [: 00:08:38

And this project fits in nicely with that.

Ruth Winden [: 00:08:40

Jess, Laurin, anything you want to add? Yeah. Such great points.

Laurin McDowall [: 00:08:44

I was just gonna say as well, it's across faculty because we also have Nasia and FMH (Faculty of Medicine & Health) as well that's helping us. And, also, we've all sat on the postdoc association group for a number of years now. So we have the support of that network as well.

Ruth Winden [: 00:09:04

Yeah. And it shows how proactive you've been and you've developed those networks. And you're really helping people like me also with my role because I have exactly the same challenge. You know, we're a big institution. There are lots of different players, lots going on. I mean, even for me, and this is my job to stay abreast of all the things and reaching out and and staying in touch. It is a challenge, you know? And so what you're doing, I think is wonderful because it helps me then also be more effective. And I'm so grateful for, for, you know, your input here.

Ruth Winden [: 00:09:34

And, and you will be challenging me over the next year, which I think is also great. You know, I have no idea what you want me to do, but I'm sure you'll tell me and I can learn so much from the process as well. So I think for me, you know, being so proactive, reaching out to people and and having those networks and bringing people together, I want you to be really proud of that because this is really difficult and you've done it. And the next year is, you know, when you can pull people together and and help us also as an institution be more concerted, you know, in in our efforts together. And I think that's a wonderful side. Maybe unintended, effect of of the bid, but it's certainly something that I'm I'm very, very aware of. Okay. So do you want to tell us a little bit more about the project? We know now there are the 2 strands.

Ruth Winden [: 00:10:18

You know, there is giving a framework to people to become aware from day 1 when they join Leeds and be aware of what is out there pulling this all together. And then at the same time, also another strand is giving people who want to gain professional accreditation to do that. And that could be, you know, that could be in a professional association, or it could be a qualification like project management. Anything else about the project that you want our listeners to know about?

James Warren [: 00:10:44

I think the underlying thing is that postdocs do have the the skills, and a lot of us have the drive to want to do something. And it shows that if, if you collaborate beyond our little groups, it shows what we can do. And I hope I hope this is kind of the the starting point to show other postdocs, not just at Leeds, but other institutions that if you shout up and ask for what you want, the support will be provided if you can show enough determination, drive, but also the benefits of it. And I think it I think it should empower the postdocs to challenge the status quo. I think for a long time, there's been a lot of people saying it's not ideal. It didn't help this. We didn't get that. And they leave yeah.

James Warren [: 00:11:29

They leave academia unsatisfied, or they kinda meander through academia. I'm not happy with where they are. And I think I want this to be the starting point that postdocs can see what they can do if they find the right team around them and engage with the right people that we can change and make what is a difficult position in industry that little bit easier to to navigate. I don't want you out of, but progress through to the place that that individual wants to be, whether that is in academia or not.

Ruth Winden [: 00:12:01

That's such a good point, isn't it? And I still I'm in awe because I've worked with researchers, in your situations for many, many years, and the complaint I always get is we haven't got time. You know? So for me, it's just wonderful to see. And I'm very aware, you know, you're making sacrifices here. You've got a very busy day job. You're already reps. We have that conversation. So you're used to, you know, being proactive and and taking responsibility and driving things. But this is quite a different, this is quite a different job.

Ruth Winden [: 00:12:30

I don't want to scare you too much, but I know you've got a year. You know? You've got a decent amount of money to spend, and you are very clear on what you're spending it on, and it will be very, very well spent. I can totally see that. But for me, it's also, you know, what's in it for you? Because you know how much I admire you. I've known you for a while. You're also been at Leeds for a while. And I think for me, that's really interesting in how those relationships we have with each other have developed over time. We've got that trust.

Ruth Winden [: 00:12:58

You know, you can always come to us, and we can always be open and challenge each other. I'm obviously at the back of my mind. I'm also thinking, yeah, we also are very transient. Lots of people come and go. You know? So to me, it's not a coincidence that you've been at Leeds for a while. You know each other. You know, you have a very clear agenda here, and you trust each other. You have a strong group.

Ruth Winden [: 00:13:18

You've built all that. You've got a fantastic foundation to take this forward. But I'm also wondering for each of you, what's in it for you? Because you could sit back and say, hang on a minute. You know, let let other people do it. But no, you know, you go through the trouble of a very busy year ahead. What's your, what's your big why for yourselves? And I think it's absolutely legitimate to say what's your big why for yourself. You know, you need to get something out of it as well because you you're getting a lot out of it for other people. Who wants to go first? Jess.

Jessica Swanson [: 00:13:47

So for me, one of the most interesting parts of my postdoc has been involved with project management, of research projects. So I'm looking forward to have the opportunity to manage and hopefully lead this project, which is still outside my usual experience without gaining further experience in project management.

Ruth Winden [: 00:14:07

Yeah. So getting that, you know, experience under your belt and testing things out and hopefully getting getting that Prince II qualification and certification, you know, to to recognise, you know, the skills that you already have and and take them to another level. Yeah. Brilliant. I can totally see that. What about you, Laurin?

Laurin McDowall [: 00:14:26

I would definitely agree with Jess. So I do see myself, I think, at this point leaving academia. So anything that would help me, progress my career in that way, is would definitely be a good thing. I'm gonna be honest as well. I'm quite motivated just to help the postdocs in our faculty. Like, that's why I'm a rep. So I you know, anything that will support our community, I'm quite keen to be involved in.

Ruth Winden [: 00:15:01

They're so lucky to have you all, you know, because you're you're going the extra mile, for for your colleagues, and, and you must be proud of that. Don't, you know, don't take it for granted. It it's special. What about you, James?

James Warren [: 00:15:13

Probably want to echo to begin with that it's to support others. We are kind of lucky that because we've been around for a while, and we are the ones that our heads look the sound and shout, things need to change. And but not everybody has opportunity. Not everyone has that personality to want to take that on. And I think being able to help others be able to at least make the most of their time at universities and make the most of it. Personally, though, I I sit I sit on the fence. I'm a pragmatist. I I know how hard it is to make a career in academia, so being involved with this is allowed to show that we can put a collaborative team together across faculty.

James Warren [: 00:15:54

But it also shows that we can independently lead something which from standard research is hard. Postdocs normally can't do that, so this is a great opportunity to show that success in a slightly different way. But for the first time in a long time, we can actually do something significant. A lot of the time, you when you you leave university, you explain what your research is, there might be one person in the room that understands it or even cares. But for something like this, this isn't just; it's the career development, full stop. It shows that if if institutions put time in to allow people like ourselves to want to direct it, things can get better. And even if we don't fully meet our objectives of this project, everything that we get out of it will improve from where we're starting. And I think that I think that's if we if we see the project that way, that we've got the objective, this is what we want it to be.

James Warren [: 00:16:47

This is the ideal endpoint. But we everything we do will make things better. And if we stay, great. We'll see the benefit of it. If we don't, the next generation of postdocs will be in a better situation than when we started. And I think that is a legacy. Feels that we're leaving in a better place than we started compared to in a lot of cases where it's worse than when we started.

Ruth Winden [: 00:17:10

It's good to hear, you know, you're very strong Whys?. And for me, it's also such a great example of, you know, positive, collaborative, equitable, and research culture in action. You know? Because people often say, well, what is research culture? Give me some examples. And for me, this project is, you know, it's so collaborative and it's beyond the normal collaborations. It's bringing people together. There's a positive drive behind it, a positive outlook, and it will benefit people. And, you know, it will make people's experience and and working experience so much better. And so I'm really excited to work with you over the next year together.

Ruth Winden [: 00:17:45

And and I just wonder before we call it to close, anything else you wanted to share with people? Oh, and I have one one challenge for you. I've been thinking about this. If people are really critical of me as a researcher developer, they could say, yeah. Yeah. Easy for you, Ruth Winden. You've just delegated your responsibility to others. And now the poor postdocs have to take on what you should be doing. What would you say to them? I can see Laurin shaking her head.

Ruth Winden [: 00:18:12

What's your response, Laurin?

Laurin McDowall [: 00:18:14

It's no. Because you are providing these things. We're just we're just pulling them together in, like, an accessible, easy, quick to access way, basically. So it's no. I don't I don't see it like that. So

Ruth Winden [: 00:18:32

Yeah. Jess is smiling.

Jessica Swanson [: 00:18:33

Yeah. Absolutely. I agree with Laurin. I think it's important that we try and put them in one place because at the moment, it's so hard to find information unless you sit down and really work it out. So while we're gonna try and test a few things like, the professional qualifications and accreditations, are the most the like, the big part of the project is just pulling everything together, getting people speaking, getting everyone in one room, and trying to make resources that postdocs can easily start taking control of their own career, whether it's academia, on the fence, or definitely want to leave. They have the opportunity to do that, and that's why. So I don't think we can get you to delegate to us at all. I think we're all just trying to work together and make the best of it.

Ruth Winden [: 00:19:20

I'm relieved to hear it. James, anything you want to bring in? Because the last thing I want to be seen is this, you know, pushing my work over to other people. I I think for me, it's it's a beautiful collaboration.

James Warren [: 00:19:30

I think it's looking by example that you, over the years, have said you ask for help. Do this. You you need to show your determination. And I think you've been you've said that in your various, initiatives that I've been involved with over the years with you that and your colleagues have provided. And I think this is just an example that we are showing that what you have told us is right. That being given the opportunity because we've asked for it and being able to being able to involve you as well, that it's not a one one stop thing. It's it's development. It's in the title.

James Warren [: 00:20:10

It means it has to go through iterations, and we can't do that without people like myself to be involved to help tailor it and adapt to what the ever shifting, benchmark is that the careers wants, the university wants, funders wants. It it nobody knows a perfect answer. And I think if if we do as postdocs, as you just let it without your involvement, it wouldn't have been anywhere near what it could be because we'd have been saying this is what we think it is, and it might not fit into what you provide or could provide. Can I reverse the question?

Ruth Winden [: 00:20:42

Of course, you can.

James Warren [: 00:20:43

So, obviously, for for everyone listening to this, we approached Ruth to ask for her involvement as part of her career, role with the university. So I want to ask Ruth why why did you say yes to be involved? Obviously, you can't say it's part of your job.

Ruth Winden [: 00:21:01

And I wouldn't say that. You know me well, well enough for that. So why did I say yes? Because as you say, James, I'm always the one saying, if you don't like something, change it. You know, if you don't get something you need, ask for it, you know? And for me, it, it's just a wonderful opportunity to yeah to help in whatever way I can. And also to support people like you, all of you, you know, and your colleagues are part of the project, you know, who give so much to the university and to their peers. And I see myself more as a facilitator here. Also and I'll be honest here, you know, it's also a certain amount of joy and pride, you know, because I've known you for a long time. I've seen you grow from, you know, from PhD through postdocs and now to onto new things.

Ruth Winden [: 00:21:45

And I, you know, I'm a natural mentor. I'm a coach. For me, there's just nothing better about my job than, you know, seeing people take charge of their career and their career development and thinking of others and, and working in partnership. I mean, this is why I love my job so much. And for me, that was such an easy yes. Because, and, you know, and I learned so much from the process. Yes. I've been in the field for a long, long, long time, you know, but I have a lot to learn and I can learn from you.

Ruth Winden [: 00:22:13

And I'l just given you an example. So when I hear you say, and I know I've got a bit defensive at the beginning when I saw what you'd written in the bid about, you know, you know, information isn't accessible. I thought, hang on a minute. We spend our lives on researcher development, trying to see where do we put stuff and how, and our website and our team space and all this kind of stuff, you know? But so for me, In my own mind, it's all accessible. If you didn't tell me, well, it isn't accessible, Ruth. You know, it's overwhelming. People don't know it. You know, you need to make it accessible, Ruth.

Ruth Winden [: 00:22:39

You know, it's overwhelming. People don't know it. You know, you need to make it easier. I need you to tell me that. Because from my perspective, it's all very obvious, but it's my role. And I do this day in, day out, you know, for researchers coming to the university and maybe staying for a few years or for a decade or whatever it is. You know? It's not that simple and straightforward. So I'm just delighted.

Ruth Winden [: 00:23:02

I can't wait to see what, you know, you'll be asking me to do for the next 12 months. And, you know, it's a great stimulation for me and let's see what we can do with it. And I'm also excited that we will be coming back to this because we agreed, with this podcast that in a year's time so the project runs until July 2025. So once you've had a time to think about what worked, what didn't work, what have you learned? You know, I'd love to come back on the podcast and let's review because I think it's such a great initiative. Lots to learn. We know not everything will be perfect and that's okay, too. We're not looking for perfection. We're looking for, okay, what can we learn from it? What has worked? How can we build that longevity that you three have said is so important to you? And then take it from there.

Ruth Winden [: 00:23:49

So thank you for having me as part of the group. And there's obviously there's Taryn, there's Nazia Nazir. There are other colleagues, you know, and and I think it would be a really interesting productive collaboration. And all I can say is I wish you best of luck. You know where I am. If you have questions and you need me, don't hold back. And I know you won't. Any, any final words from you guys? Because you'll be doing most of the work and I am in awe of that because I know you have a busy job and you're taking on a big project, but I know you'll deliver and I'm excited to see what you will deliver.

Ruth Winden [: 00:24:22

So any parting thoughts from you guys? James is smiling. Do you want to go first, James?

James Warren [: 00:24:28

Don't give up because we see so many colleagues that just have had enough of just the same thing over and over again. And if you give up, you can't change. And I know that's hard to say, but try try and try and do something different. And if that's changing yourself, try and change a colleague's point of view. As a postdoc, we are in a unique position where we are starting to be listened to, and we I don't think we realize how much power we potentially have to change things if we take the opportunity. But getting that opportunity isn't easy, so do don't give up on trying to ask for that opportunity. It will come if you shout loud enough and find the right people to shout for you as well.

Ruth Winden [: 00:25:12

Thank you, James. Lauren? Yeah.

Laurin McDowall [: 00:25:16

I guess I'll just echo what James said. You know, I I feel like things are improving, in terms of giving postdocs a voice. We see it as reps. So I think something like this that could potentially have, you know, good benefits for postdocs and their career development, just adds to that. So, yeah, I'm just really excited to to get started and see how it goes.

James Warren [: 00:25:45

Brilliant. Thank you. And Jess is smiling too. You're all smiling. I think we're all excited about this project. Jess, parting words.

Jessica Swanson [: 00:25:53

I've been really lucky to be involved with some of the really great career development opportunities at Leeds. And I just think it's so empowering to be able to take control of your career and find opportunities that help support it. So for me, just being able to widen access to that through people knowing where things are and finding it easily. Hopefully, it will help people be more confident in their post doc career and any career that comes afterwards. And I think that's just such a nice thing to help people with because it's made a huge difference to me. So, yeah, I want to help people in that too.

Ruth Winden [: 00:26:27

Thank you so much. And help, you will. So thank you so much for your time. And, yes, let's get stuck in with that project, and then we'll come back in a year and review it. And all the very best, and speak soon.

Ruth Winden [: 00:26:50

Take care.

Outro [: 00:26:53

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