(Episode 98) Career Development For Everyone: Associate Professor Lynn McKeown in conversation with Ruth Winden

Podcast announcer [: 00:00:04

Welcome to the Research Culture Uncovered podcast, where in every episode, we explore what is research culture, and what should it be? You'll hear thoughts and opinions from a range of contributors to help you change research culture into what you want it to be.

Ruth Winden [: 00:00:24

So I'm delighted to have Lynn McKeown with me today, and Lynn is the Associate Professor in Vascular Cell Biology here at the University of Leeds. Lynn and I have collaborated on careers projects for almost 2 years now, and she's doing such fantastic work. I really wanted to bring her onto the podcast so we can share with you what she is doing in her role. She is the academic lead for LICAMM Career Development Academies. So not only is she an Associate Professor and does her research and is a research leader, she also leads on the career development in her Institute. Over to you, Lynn. It's so wonderful to have you, and I'm so interested to hear more about the Academies, your work, and a breakthrough that you have initiated recently that I was really keen to explore further with you. Welcome.

Lynn McKeown [: 00:01:11

Thank you. Thanks for inviting me. And I think, yes, this is really important that we we get this out there and everybody understands what we've achieved and how this should be sort of spread out to the rest of the faculty in the university, I think. So, yeah, I am lead for, Academic Lead for our Institute's career development. And we call it Academies because we want to develop and value and motivate all the staff and all our students. And I think the Institute has all always sort of emphasized career development. However, I think before COVID, the groups that we had tended to be taken over by the early career researchers, and that is a really important group. However, then other groups started to feel excluded or that the initiatives we were doing wasn't really for them.

Lynn McKeown [: 00:02:03

So it was really important after COVID, when we started to think about creative development again, that we included everybody. Because in the Institute, we do act as a collective, and we need to make sure that everybody understands that they are valued in the in the work that they do. And none of us would be successful if we didn't have technicians in our lab. You know, we didn't have the support of our admin team or our, you know, professional managerial and support team, and as well as our students, you know, who do a lot of the work, and, you know, our fellows that are are leading a lot of the research as well. So we just wanted to make sure that we was understanding what the priorities were for all the cohorts of staff and students. And so that's where I came in really to start developing some of those initiatives.

Ruth Winden [: 00:02:54

And Lynn, give us an a flavor of LICAMM. First of all, it's an acronym. We love our acronyms at Leeds, don't we? And then give us a flavor of the size of the Institute, and and what is what is the faculty around it?

Lynn McKeown [: 00:03:05

And so it's the Leeds Institute of of Cardiovascular Metabolic Medicine. So we tend to work with the heart and the vascular system and, problems with metabolism such as diabetes. We're quite a large Institute, with over 200 staff and students. So we've got what over 100, got about 100 PhD students. So I think, you know, that's quite a high number to have in one Institute. We come under the School of Medicine, so there's several Institutes under the School of Medicine, and then that lies under the Faculty of Medicine and Health.

Ruth Winden [: 00:03:45

Yeah. Thank you, Lynn. And I must say, having just worked with you and your PhD community, they're very switched on and very, very value driven, aren't they? You know, they they are also, you know, sponsored a lot by the British Heart Foundation and, you know, you have several organizations you work so closely with, don't you? And so there is a real spirit in terms of career development. And I think that comes through a lot of, you know, long long term planning and thinking and driving the process. And, Lynn, when did you become then the academic lead for the Career Development Academies?

Lynn McKeown [: 00:04:19

It was about 2 years ago. I've done this position now for about, 2 years. It's when we decided, you know, that we really needed to, put some initiatives in place. The Institute thought we should have some real initiatives in place and they advertised this and it is an academic lead position, you know, they give me some, full time equivalent for this. So they were really stressing the importance of career development within the Institute. And we had to go through an interview process, and I was successful. And I think I was successful because I was emphasizing the need to include all staff, you know, and how that aligned with the School of Medicine and the Faculty's priorities, you know, on our research culture and, EDI policies. So I think that's why I got the position actually because I had ideas that we could do for all the different cohorts and that we included the students, which previously hadn't been included because we thought that the students would have their own sort of career development pathways.

Lynn McKeown [: 00:05:25

A lot of the students were actually asking for help, so we insight to include the students as well.

Ruth Winden [: 00:05:31

Absolutely. And, you know, since I'm in, you know, leading on the, careers aspect of the Researcher Development Concordat and, you know, the implementation of career development initiatives that Leeds signed up to is, you know, this work is really close to my heart, and I'm very aware, you know, that in in the Concordat and I say this for our listeners who might not be familiar with the system and and who might be outside of the UK. So in the UK, driven by the by institutions, but also by by the funders, by working all of us in the sector together, we recognize the need for postdoctoral staff whose contracts are bound, you know, to research contracts that are time bound and fixed, you know, that they deserve support in developing their careers because they're obviously an incredibly important part of research and the researcher community, and we want to help them develop their careers and and, you know, and stay with us, you know, and develop you know, make make an impact through their work. And so they have had now, for quite a few years, an entitlement. And in Leeds, it's actually written into their contracts. They have an entitlement of 10 days career development time. And that is time for them to spend on activities to develop their careers. It could be work, shadowing.

Ruth Winden [: 00:06:46

It could be, finding time to do teaching. It could be, you know, exploring different career options. I mean, as long as it's to do with their careers, their career development, that's what the 10 days are for. And I think it's it's, you know, it's obviously offering something to them that is important that they need to take up on. And as you say, Lynn, and there are other other people in our research research community who say, hang on a minute. The postdocs are getting 10 days. What about my career development? And that's this is where you came in, Lynne, because you identified that really, early on, didn't you, saying we need more than this?

Lynn McKeown [: 00:07:25

Yeah. Well, I was really surprised because I thought the 10 days was for everybody. So you get to a stage, I think, you know, so I think, like, our mid career people, they sort of take their own time to do career development, you know, so it's not really, it's not really timetabled for them in any way. They can take their own time. But there there were other cohorts that I realized were not being given any time for career development, and some of them felt like they couldn't really talk to line managers about having time to go and do things just for their career development. And I was really surprised. And I think I did a staff meeting where I said, well, you've all got 10 days, and we're going to do all these initiatives. I've got all these ideas.

Lynn McKeown [: 00:08:06

And somebody said, well, we haven't got 10 days. And that was the first time I I'd heard because I'd heard the Researcher Concordat had given people 10 days, and I thought it's for everyone. And I think so that's when you came along. That was one of our first, events that we did. We did a Concordat event so that the Institute understood what that Concordat was, what that meant to our early career researchers, and what it meant to the people that were managing those researchers as well. From that, I just thought, you know, this has to be equitable across all our staff and students. You know, if one group are being given 10 days, then surely if we're advertising our research culture and the way that we have inclusive practice that we must also do this with career development.

Ruth Winden [: 00:08:53

Absolutely. And I really admire your leadership on this, Lynne, because I know you've been driving the process. Do you wanna tell us a little bit more about, you know, how you went about it? Because, obviously, you know, you need to convince senior leaders in in the university that this is a good idea because I can imagine that some people said, you know, they might have reasons not to support it. So how did you go about this?

Lynn McKeown [: 00:09:16

So I wrote a position paper, and I did this with the help of, Charlie Scarff, who's our EDI lead. And Alison Fadden, who at that point, was, Head of our Operation's team and our technicians. And so we had to write this position paper that went, first of all, to our sub Institute executive group so that they could look it over. And we we stressed the importance, first of all, of why we should be doing this. And then we we said what the current position was for all the different groups. So we said with our PGRs, they get some money. So they get the Robert's money to do trading. And, initially, out of that Robert's report, they did he did stress the 10 days minimum for ring fenced, professional development.

Lynn McKeown [: 00:10:05

However, we've never actually put that down anywhere. We've never emphasized that. That. So the early careers got it, but we never said for the students that this money they get that was shown in the Roberts report is also for their professional development. And I think a lot of supervisors tended to use their professional development time more in learning the skills they needed to do the project. So we've talked about the current position of PGRs. We've talked about technicians and how the Institute had signed up for the Technician Commitment, and how other in universities were leading the way by having, promotional pathways that were very clear, and they were given time to their technicians to be able to develop their careers and and follow some of these promotional pathways. And how our more our support staff were doing at the time as well.

Lynne McKeown [: 00:10:57

You know? Now they had a lot of, competencies that may have been built into their jobs, but, actually, they weren't given any ring fenced time. Then we proposed some models of how that would look like in the future. So it might look different for the time that technicians take for developing their careers may look different from how the early careers do do that. And then we stressed how actually going forward, how the universities are already doing this and that we really wanted to lead the way. And now it was actionable against the University's Research Culture strategies that we have and some of the other initiatives, you know, some of our EDI initiatives. And then also the funding bodies now were saying that we should have an emphasis on career development. And some of those, like UKRI, had signed up the technician to the Technician's Commitment and was and we're actually putting we had to put down in some of our applications how we were supporting technician time. So, I thought I put that forward as this is really important that they have the ring fenced time then for their career development, and it will help them.

Lynn McKeown [: 00:12:06

It will support and value them, and it will also help us to start retaining some of those staff, and for us to be leaders in this this field of career development.

Ruth Winden [: 00:12:16

Mhmm. And I think it's also so interesting having worked with some of the cohorts in in the Institute, you know, how incredibly motivated they become, you know, when they feel like the Institute is investing in them and they have a genuine interest in helping them develop and grow and take more and more responsibility. And you can just feel it in the room with them, don't you? You know, they're suddenly they're reignited, and they're getting interested, and they're getting really committed. And and that's the kind of employees you want. You know? You want people to be engaged with their career development. It's good for them, but it's also good for the research teams, and it's eventually also good for their research outputs.

Lynn McKeown [: 00:12:53

Yes. Definitely. I think it's made it's made a huge difference. So as you know, we've just had, been doing career development with our with our technicians. And one of the first things we did as a Career Academy is is we put out surveys to see what staff perceived as the gaps and the needs that they had for career development. And from the technicians, they definitely came back as saying, well, we don't have time for it. And, also, a lot of the other initiatives are not for us. Therefore, early career researchers or for other types of, staff, but they're not for us.

Lynn McKeown [: 00:13:27

And they really felt excluded, and they felt that they weren't empowered to go to their managers and be able to say, oh, there's this career development course that I want to do. Or when it was gonna take time out of the research that their manager had probably got grant money to pay them for, you know, and, time was quite, important for them to have, just to empower them. Say, well, I've got these 10 days now, so I know I can take time for career development. And it has just made a huge difference, because for the first time, they started signing on to some of the courses that we are now running, whereas previously, they would they would never have done that. And, actually, as you know, we did the career coaching course devised by yourself. We've got, is it nearly 3 quarters of the technicians signed up for that? You know? Yeah. And that's never been done before.

Ruth Winden [: 00:14:24

Yeah. And seeing them on their journey from being a little bit, hesitant to start with and now in full flow and really engaged and saying, I wish, you know, I could have done this years ago. You know? I think that's just music to our ears, isn't it? Yeah. They're a real joy to work with. But, also, I think it I find your approach so empowering, Lynne, because you are really clear on you need to tell me what you need, and you've got that relationship with people in the Institute. And I've worked now with, you know, the postdocs, the PGRs. We're working with the technicians at the moment. And what's really clear is, you know, you've got that relationship with them, and they feel like they can really tell you what they need.

Ruth Winden [: 00:15:01

And, you know, asking people what they need is is such a key piece and then putting it into place. So they're also you know, they see that, you know, when they ask for things, there is a response to it, and and that is also very empowering for them.

Lynn McKeown [: 00:15:14

Yeah. Because I think previously, we haven't done that. We've just sort of put things in place without asking people what they actually wanted. Yep. You know? And then also to realize that the different groups of staff and students may want different things. So first of all, what I did as when I took up the lead position was I set up a team as well to make sure I had representation from all the different groups. So because I realized that very quickly that if I went to talk to the technicians, they were they were a bit like, you know, what's this person doing? This is an Associate Professor . How is she going to know what we want in our career development? And they were much more at ease talking to another technician.

Lynn McKeown [: 00:15:51

So straight away, I started to put leads in place for all those different groups of staff. So we do have a technical lead. You know? We do have a a PGR lead, and we have an early career group lead. And then they go out, and they interact then with that group of staff. And we do surveys, and then we come back, and we get together as a team, and then we decide what we're going to do and what things we're going to put into place. So I think that has worked really well.

Ruth Winden [: 00:16:19

Yeah. It's a it's a true co-creation. And then one thing I noticed last week when we're doing the, Postgraduate Researcher Career Development day together, also with Taryn Bell, my colleague here in OD&PL, was that I thought it was brilliant, you know, because you got you gave the PhDs. A few of them volunteered to organize and take responsibility, you know. So it's also this upskilling in in the PGRs with the events that you put on. And you could just see their pride when it came together beautifully and, you know, how engaged they were. And that's something that is also really there to be celebrated. So I thought that was wonderful.

Lynn McKeown [: 00:16:57

Well, it's giving them, yes, some leadership skills and some organizational skills. So, as soon as, you know, we knew we're gonna do a PGR Away Day. So I had, Gaia, who was a she's our PGR, lead. So I said, you know, do you want to organize this event? Do you want to find out who else wants to get these type of skills, you know, and get them on board as well? And I I said, I'll be in the background, and I'll help you, you know, because I've done this thing before, but I want you to lead on it. And I I just think they they did a really good job. Yeah. You know? So Wonderful. She put the survey out first to see actually what our PGR students would like to see on that day.

Lynn McKeown [: 00:17:35

And then we sort of developed it around there. So I just had to guide her here and there to, you know, how you where we should have it and, how you book the food. And

Ruth Winden [: 00:17:45

Yeah. All the intricacies of managing systems in a university. And so, Lynn, you've done wonderful work, together with your colleagues. You've really driven this project forward. So what is the status now? So what has what has the senior management in LICAMM and in the Faculty agreed?

Lynn McKeown [: 00:18:04

So we've always been supported by, the Institute directors. We have Laura Treadgold, first of all, who set up the Academies. And now we have Khalid Naseem. And he's very supportive of career development. So, he was the one that says, you know, you got to write a position paper, put it through the sub executive group, get feedback from them, adjust it again, and then it went to the executive group. They came back with some more adjustments, you know, and then we put it through, and he sort of delivered delivered it to them and emphasized how important it was. So we've actually now agreed that all our staff and students now have this 10 days, ring fenced time. And, hopefully, I think this is going up to Faculty.

Lynn McKeown [: 00:18:52

It's sort of been taken out of my hands now. But I really think if they could understand the effect it's had, for example, on our technicians and how, like, say, engaged and how how they've started joining in initiatives that they would never have done before and how they're really, really enjoying it. I think if we got feedback from them and we could feed that back up to Faculty to show, you know, how important this is, you know, that would help as well to be able to spread it out across the whole Faculty.

Ruth Winden [: 00:19:23

Yeah. So you're definitely trailblazers at the University of Leeds. It's been so exciting for me to see in how you drive this all forward. Lynn, is there anything else you'd like to bring in that I that we haven't explored yet about career development for everyone at LICAMM? Tell me about you then because I I do admire you. You know, you take such leadership here. What what is it that what's your big why doing all this work?

Lynn McKeown [: 00:19:48

I think I think my big why is because I took an unusual career path. So I was somebody who didn't do I did okay in school up to well, it was O-levels, but I was doing it. And then it got to A-levels, you know, and I discovered life, shall we say. So and then I had a family. So I I was in my thirties before I decided actually what I wanted to do. You know, I was very interested in the health of my children and what they were eating, etcetera. And I'd never done science before. So I decided to go back to college, mid thirties, and do, an access course to science.

Lynn McKeown [: 00:20:26

And just, you know, told my husband I was just doing this little access course. I'd go back to work after that, but that then led to well, might as well do a degree now, you know, because it's been so interesting. So I went to do the degree, and then after the degree, it was well, if I do a PhD, you know how to get the full research. So, you know, and I just seem to have I'm still here. So I think I took an unusual career path, and I think, you know, it's important that people don't think that a career path is a linear. There's lots of different avenues and if one door shuts, you know, that might be end up being the right thing for you and another door opens. You know? And I and as far as leading, I've never thought of myself as a leader. I just have a lot of ideas.

Lynn McKeown [: 00:21:11

And and I just can see when I think things aren't fair. You know? And so I think that's really important that there's equitable practice across everything that we do. You know?

Ruth Winden [: 00:21:21

Yeah. Absolutely.

Lynn McKeown [: 00:21:23

Yeah. And then having lots of ideas so that which I think will help people then making sure that those ideas are the correct ideas, though. And it's not just me getting carried away, which it it usually is. You know?

Ruth Winden [: 00:21:36

But you're also very persuasive with your enthusiasm because ideas is is one thing. You know, you also need to be able to influence, people and come onto that journey with you. And I really hope that your husband is now very, very proud of you because he must have been surprising. Okay. A little access course, and suddenly he's a PhD, and years years years are gone. So, so shall we say thank you to him too?

Lynn McKeown [: 00:21:59

Yeah. We can. Yes. Because I suppose most of that time, he had to look after the children. And he had to work hours around what I was doing. Yeah. So I, I did have a lot of support.

Lynn McKeown [: 00:22:10

I was very lucky.

Ruth Winden [: 00:22:11

Yeah. And, Lynne, it's been absolutely wonderful to speak to you and thank you so much for sharing your journey and, this incredible achievement and one of many achievements, but, you know, it's it's it's something very special, and I'm really grateful that you've been driving it because in terms of research culture, you know, this is the kind of change that we need to see. And thank you from all of us. And, yeah, all the best.

Lynn McKeown [: 00:22:35

Yeah. Well, thank you for inviting me, because, once again, I do think it's important that people know that we are driving this. And so if we are doing it as an Institute and it's successful, then there's no reason why it shouldn't be able to be spread out to all the other Institutes as well.

Ruth Winden [: 00:22:49

Wonderful. We'll leave it with that strong statement at the end. Thank you so much, Lynn.Lynn McKeown: Thank you.

Lynne McKeown [: 00:22:55

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