(Episode 106) Narrative CVs: What now? What next?

Taryn Bell [: 00:00:24

Narrative CV. Resume for Research and Innovation. Evidence based cv. Whatever you choose to call it, it's here to stay. Funders and universities both in the UK and elsewhere, are increasingly moving towards a narrative format of cv. The aim of this change is to encourage researchers to share a wider range of achievements than traditional academic CVs and move away from the narrow measures of performance that we've used in the past. But is this working? How do we feel about this new format and what comes next? Welcome to the Research Culture Uncovered podcast. I'm Taryn Bell and I'm joined today by my co host, Emma Sparry.

Emma [: 00:01:06

Hi Taryn, and thank you for having me. It's slightly nervous sitting on this side of the recording, but yes, I'm Emma and I work in the Research and Development and Culture team at the University of Leeds.

Taryn Bell [: 00:01:17

So all the way back in season six, you recorded a couple of episodes with Elizabeth Adams in which you discussed the development of narrative CVs and for those interested, links to those episodes can be found in the show notes. Almost a year and a half on from those episodes, a lot has happened and it seems like a really good time to revisit this topic. We've seen a number of funders introduce their own versions of this new format. Some universities are using narrative CVs for hiring and promotion, and very recently in the UK they're even name checked in the Research Excellence Framework or ref, as an indicator of inclusivity. Now, Emma, the reason I've asked you to come on and talk about this is that you have a really unique perspective because you've developed a lot of our narrative CV support at Leeds, you sit on UKRI's alternative uses group and you had to write one yourself for your role as Deputy Director of Research Culture. So let's start there. What was it like for you writing your own Narrative CV?

Emma [: 00:02:20

Honestly, it was really daunting. I immediately started focusing on what I didn't think I had looking at the empty boxes, thinking, what on earth am I going to be able to put in here? But then when I started drafting the bullet points, I realized actually there was quite a lot of stuff. And that took me to the other extreme because it became really wordy, really long, really quite rambly. So. Okay, now I've got to start thinking about how I Make it more concise, how do I focus in on what's really important? But I think actually the overall structure helped me to evidence my experience that I may not have thought about including in a traditional CV or application. So I think on the whole it was a positive experience. I mean, how good it was, I don't know. You would have to ask the recruitment panel.

Emma [: 00:03:10

But I certainly felt it enabled me to give a really wide evidenced example of everything I had accomplished and also how that had made a difference.

Taryn Bell [: 00:03:22

It's interesting because your experience, your personal experience of writing a narrative CV feels to me like it mirrors what they were designed to do to give that broader understanding of what you've achieved. But at the same time, I think, speaking about some of the challenges of writing it, I think those mirror a lot of what we're hearing from the academic community as well. So just broadening out a little bit, thinking about both our own experience at Leeds and our connections with other academics and other research developers elsewhere. How have narrative CVs been received by the academic community so far?

Emma [: 00:04:01

Blimey, that's a really mixed one, isn't it? I think it depends on who you ask. There are some people who have embraced them, they can see why we're doing it, but there are also people who see these as an additional barrier. I think the researcher developers are probably a little bit more pragmatic. We know they're not going anywhere, so we have had to flex and adapt to meet the needs. So not only how do we support our researchers to be able to use these, but how do we then, as an institution, focus on the positives and the benefits that they bring?

Taryn Bell [: 00:04:40

I find from my own experience working with researchers, is that sometimes they need the rationale behind why this has been introduced to understand, to understand why they need to do it. Because for some of them it can feel just like, oh, here's another hoop I have to jump through. Here's another thing that I have to do.

Emma [: 00:04:56

Yeah, and I know you mentioned that I'd created a lot of the narrative CV support here at Leeds, but you are now leading on this, so you're probably getting the brunt of the frustrations I had at the beginning. Researchers coming to us, wanting us to have all of the answers and also wanting us to be the sort of defender of their use. And I've lost count of how many times I, and probably you have been asked to clarify why we chose to do this. It wasn't us, it wasn't our decision.

Taryn Bell [: 00:05:26

That can be. That can be for me quite difficult, like you say, being, being forced to, or being asked to justify why this new thing has come in. But actually something that I've noticed recently, probably over the last year or so, is that there are really useful ways to use the narrative CV beyond just applying for jobs. And I think this for me has actually been something that's helped me convince some other research developers that this is a format that can be really beneficial for us. So, for example, I quite like using the narrative CV in a similar way to the way that we use the, you know, the Vitae research development framework as a development framework, as a way to understand what's going on in your track record and to think about where there's gaps are or where there's areas for development are.

Emma [: 00:06:14

It certainly is. I mean, one of the reasons we brought in the alternative uses group was to think about how these could be used more widely and how we could make them more natural in their approach. I certainly think as a career development tool, it's fantastic. It gives somebody an opportunity to really step back and reflect on everything they've done and potentially identify where they may need to do some development. So you can feed that in then to an ongoing career development plan. The other thing you can use them for is any other type of application using the format of how you did it, why you did it and what the outcome was is, as we know, fundamental to any application you're making.

Taryn Bell [: 00:07:00

Absolutely. And it's interesting actually, because this morning I went onto the UKRI website just to have a little bit of a read and try and remind myself exactly how they defined the reasons for the reasons for implementing their version, the R4, Rihanna. And what I found really interesting is that they on their website, describe it as a combination of a CV and a cover letter, which I actually think is quite accurate, to be fair, in some ways, and I think is quite a useful way of thinking about what it brings. And in that respect, actually, when I talk to people about how to write a Narrative CV, it's very much the same advice that I give them when it comes to writing a cover letter or writing a job application. A lot of those skills, particularly the ability to bring out a narrative, to weave a story about what you've done and to back it up with with evidence, that's stuff that most researchers already have experience of. So really, the narrative CV is in some ways not as much of a revolutionary change as people might think, at first, at least in the way that it's being written.

Emma [: 00:08:01

Yeah, I have to agree. I think There are definitely more ways we can use it. My own experience of using it for recruitment was not terrible, it was different. And as I've already said, there were some positives. I just don't think think as a sector yet. We are at the point where these are going to be rolled out, certainly not at Leeds in our recruitment, but there are definitely elements of it that you will find now creeping into recruitment practices, you know, thinking about that more reflective approach. And whilst we haven't used the narrative CV in its entirety in a lot of our recruitment, we are using those questions, those boxes, as part of the identifying criteria.

Taryn Bell [: 00:08:42

So in that way it's starting to feel like narrative CVs, if they're not becoming fully used and embedded, the approach and the ethos behind them is becoming embedded a little bit further in research culture.

Emma [: 00:08:56

Absolutely, yes. We're definitely seeing more of a drive to use them across research culture. I know other institutions are running their own pilot studies around whether or not they could be used more openly in recruitment or whether there are elements that can be used. So, for example, of what we did in the Guide for Sharing interview questions used the same approach. It was helping people to think about how they might evidence those answers using the narrative CV format.

Taryn Bell [: 00:09:27

And speaking of studies, I think one of the things I've been really interested in is the narrative. We talk a lot about narrative CVs and they've been implemented quite widely, but there's actually not a huge amount of research into how effective they are. This is starting to change. There have been a few studies over the last couple of months that have come out that have had interesting things to say, but one of the things I think that they've highlighted is some of the challenges around the narrative CVs. So from your perspective, what would you say are the key challenges?

Emma [: 00:09:57

Oh, blimey, we'll be here for ages. I think obviously they were brought in to be a positive influencer, but we know that whenever you bring something in, there are always going to be unintended challenges. And I think probably the best biggest one is the style of which you write. So it's very narrative, it's very reflective. That instantly becomes an additional barrier if, for example, English isn't your first language. I think one of the other issues we have is when we start Talking about Team CVs, and again, we could be here for ages.

Taryn Bell [: 00:10:33

And if I'm very honest, I mean, I really agree with the ethos behind the Narrative CV and I think they could potentially have a big influence on, you know, shaping how we think about what we class as excellence in academic research. That said, I think one of the major issues for me is team cvs, because there are extremes. So, for example, if you're applying for a UKRI or one of the UK research councils, one of their grants, you get exactly the same word length for your Narrative CV, whether it's one person or seven people on a team. Whereas the Wellcome Trust asks each individual member of any team to submit a Narrative CV. You either have the problem that you're trying to cram a lot of people into very few words or you're putting a lot of onus on reviewers to read a huge amount of paperwork, which I'm not entirely convinced will end up happening. I'll be really interested to see where Team CVs go, whether it's something as simple as just giving them a slightly longer word count, or whether it's realized that there's a different approach approach or a different kind of narrative that needs to be built up there.

Emma [: 00:11:41

Yeah, And I think it's also, when we're talking to our researchers, they're often striving for excellence. So us saying to them, you can't be great or you can't be evidenced in every box is really quite challenging because they feel that they should be being able to evidence really good examples across all of the different areas. And that then brings in an additional challenge of, of, you know, potentially more experienced researchers overshadowing some of the contributions made by earlier career researchers. Because that, you know. So us going in saying you don't have to be great in every box or you don't have to be present in every box is actually quite an awkward conversation sometimes to have.

Taryn Bell [: 00:12:24

Yeah. And it's a difficult one to strike the balance on because the funders say you don't need to have something in every box, but having spoken to reviewers myself, they say when that box is blank, it's almost more noticeable. So I've kind of gone for an in between house kind of answer now where I say to people, look, try and have something in every box, but there's always going to be that one box you're weaker on, that you maybe only have one or two small examples, and that's fine as long as there's something in there. I think the way that UKRI's format works at the moment is very difficult for early career researchers because that final module that focuses on contributions to broader society. I'm going to be honest, I don't know that many early career researchers who can convincingly argue that Wellcomble don't include that at all on their early career award because there is that understanding that early career researchers will have just not got there. So different funders are finding different ways, different funders have got their own formats. The ethos is the same, but they're all trying different things. What that does mean for researchers is it can be quite frustrating because if you're applying for two different grants, you've got to learn two different formats, you've got to try two different things.

Emma [: 00:13:34

I think it's also worth mentioning that other box that we often see and how researchers can see that as an open box to cram everything they've not been able to get in into that. And obviously there's a very specific reason that they have that box and it should only be used in specific circumstances. I just want to go back to something else that we were talking about at the beginning when we're talking about evidencing these. I think there is still a tendency for people to want to put in almost bullet points of evidence. So thinking of a copy and paste from a traditional CV into a narrative and then not really using that narrative approach. So I think a lot of where we are supporting people is why you did it, how you did it, and then the so what what happened as a result. And that obviously is, is quite a new way of evidencing these things.

Taryn Bell [: 00:14:27

I was speaking to Cat Davies, our Dean of Research Culture the other day about this actually, and she had an interesting point that sometimes calling them a narrative CV can confuse researchers and make them feel like it's not evidence based, like it's just building up a story. And I've had, I cannot tell you the number of times researchers have said to me, but couldn't I just make things up to put in the Narrative CV? Which I always find frustrating, but also quite funny because I say to them, well, have you lied in your current cv? No. You could just as easily lie in a traditional CV as you can in a Narrative CV. I personally don't see that as an issue, but I think that idea of a story or a narrative can be confusing. And so I'm personally starting to move to a point where I refer to them a little bit more as an evidence based cv because it's really hard to build up a good narrative without that evidence. The challenge for many of our researchers is getting that evidence. That can be tough. The classic example is, you know, if someone says, I've supervised six master students, my argument is always, okay, well, okay, let's think about that a little bit more.

Taryn Bell [: 00:15:32

How did you supervise them and what evidence do you have that your supervision had a positive outcome? And that is really hard to answer. So I do wonder whether narrative CVs are a chance for our researchers to think really clearly about how they evidence and how they show that they have impact beyond their research.

Emma [: 00:15:50

And that's one of the reasons that we aren't providing examples. So through the alternative uses group, we used to get asked a lot, can you provide us with examples of what a good narrative or evidence based CV looks like? And we can't because they're so individual to each person. There is a tendency, if we were to say this is what a good one looks like, people would then either try to copy that and fit their own experience to that evidence, or it may actually restrict their thinking so they don't think about everything else they've done that perhaps this person hasn't.

Taryn Bell [: 00:16:24

Absolutely, absolutely. And I think that really brings me on quite nicely to the, what I see as the kind of positives of the narrative CV, because I mean, I read a lot of narrative CVs and from my perspective you gain such a good understanding of the individual researcher and what is important to them and what they've done and what they're capable of than a traditional CV used to do. I don't know how you feel about that when you read them.

Emma [: 00:16:51

I think I'm always amazed at the range of contributions that our researchers undertake. It's no longer just about being a fantastic researcher leading a project. It's all of those other bits about developing people, the contributions that you make as a research leader to a healthy research culture.

Taryn Bell [: 00:17:09

I guess the thing as well about the narrative CV that I quite like is that there is that explicit attempt to move away from an obsession with performance metrics. And I think the narrative CV as well can be really powerful in helping researchers to contextualise what they're doing to help us understand what's going on behind the impact factor or the H index.

Emma [: 00:17:33

Absolutely agree. One of the examples I started using when I started supporting researchers with these were the narrative CV is a way to be able to evidence the contributions that you're adding to your disciplinary knowledge without that reliance on those traditional metrics. I don't quite think we're at a point yet where the metrics have completely gone away. Whether we'll get there, I don't know. But for example, you could have an article in a really highly ranked journal that isn't necessarily being read or cited by any other researchers. Or you could have an article in a mid range journal that is being used regularly, has got lots of citations. So we could argue which one do you consider to be having more impact?

Taryn Bell [: 00:18:21

Absolutely. No, I agree, I agree. So there's a lot we know about narrative CVs and both from our own practice and from our experience talking to funders and researchers, but there are, I guess, still a few things that we still do not know. So I guess for you, Emma, going forward, what are the major questions that you have about Narrative CVs?

Emma [: 00:18:42

I think it's how we're going to support our reviewers. This is not only new for the people writing them, but for the people reviewing them as well. And I don't know about you, Taryn, but I don't personally think there has been enough support for that side of the process. And that in itself can then bring in a lot of inequity. How are they being reviewed? Is there a consistent scoring mechanism? As you've said, are people actually reading them in detail? So I think there's an awful lot we could be doing or the funders could be doing to support their reviewers.

Taryn Bell [: 00:19:16

Absolutely. I completely agree. I think this is one of my key concerns going forward is how do we make sure that narrative CVs reach their full potential. And a key part of that is having reviewers who understand how to review them and understand the value of them. I mean, I have run training and development at other universities where I was bought in because people had been asked to review narrative CVs and didn't feel comfortable doing so. And I was bought in to do this development with them after they'd already reviewed for these funders. So this stuff had already been done and yet they hadn't had the training at the time, which is really concerning. We need to make sure that the funders are actually giving them the time and giving them the space to be able to do this confidently.

Emma [: 00:20:01

And I think until that happens, we're not going to see that wider rollout because we're not going to be building confidence in our research community that people are equipped to not only support others, to be able to write their narratives, but to give them that critical feedback and to be able to evaluate them properly.

Taryn Bell [: 00:20:17

I completely agree. So if someone is listening to this, either a researcher or a research developer, what resources would you point them in the direction of to learn more about the Narrative CV?

Emma [: 00:20:30

Well, I have to give a big shout out to our own. They are openly available to anyone in the sector. There are guides on how to evidence them, how to write them, actually what they are. But then there are also sector wide resources. So through the Alternative Uses group they have a bank of resources to help people think about how to use them, the wider benefits and how to roll them out. There's also a relatively new initiative, the pepcv, which is the peer exchange platform. It's available for anyone to sign up to and they will hopefully be building banks of resources to help researchers and reviewers in this area.

Taryn Bell [: 00:21:11

And as always, we'll make sure all of those resources are in the Show Notes for anyone who's interested. Emma, you and I could probably talk about this for hours, but that's all we have time for today. Emma, thank you so much for joining me to talk about all things narrative CVs. As Emma said, if you're interested in Narrative CVs and want to know more, you will find plenty of resources, advice and insight in the Show Notes. Do contact us as well, because we'd love to hear more about your own experiences with the Narrative CV. Whether you're a researcher currently writing one, a researcher developer working with researchers, or you're working at a funder and want to share your thoughts on what's going on in the background, contact us via LinkedIn or Bluesky. Again, our contact details are in the Show Notes, so until next time, goodbye.