(Episode 109) Tony Bromley Reflects on his Career, the Changes, and the Future in Research Development

Intro: 00:00:00

Welcome to the Research Culture Uncovered podcast, where in every episode we explore what is research culture and what should it be. You'll hear thoughts and opinions from a range of contributors to help you change research culture into what you want it to be.

Ged Hall: 00:00:23

Welcome. My name is Ged Hall, and I'm an Academic Development Consultant for Research Impact at the University of Leeds.

All of the episodes I contribute to the Research Culture Uncovered podcast focus on some aspects of research impact, and they're all available via a playlist, which is in the show notes. I've also recently started a playlist called Research Impact Heroes, which I will be adding to periodically. That link is also in the show notes.

But today's episode doesn't really fit into either of those categories, although there are some reasons that we may go into that. It could have fitted into the Research Impact Heroes List. Today I'm joined by Dr. Tony Bromley. Until recently, Tony was a co-host on the Research Culture Uncovered podcast.

We haven't yet taken him off the podcast homepage because I think we're all in denial. Me especially. But before we let Tony enjoy his well earned retirement, we had to have him back to benefit from his humor, his experience and expertise, and maybe even his guitar playing. Check out the podcast song episode that's also in the show notes.

Tony, it's great to be sat here with you live having this chat today.

Tony Bromley: 00:01:37

It's great to be here. Thanks for inviting me. I've got a challenge now. You said humor and expertise, so I'll try my best as we go through.

Ged Hall: 00:01:46

Well, we'll see. I'll, I'm sure we'll be able to crack a few jokes, probably old man jokes. Well, possibly nobody else will understand.

Tony Bromley: 00:01:53

Yeah. Probably outside of development, we've got our cricket and football and things, haven't we?

Ged Hall: 00:01:57

We have, yeah, absolutely. So Tony, we've known each other since about 2004 I think it is. Yeah. Um, and that's not long after I got my first role as a researcher developer. So I started at Nottingham in December, uh, late December actually, 2000 and and three.

PhD at Leeds, between. Eight.: 1988

Tony Bromley 00:02:32

No, not that we're aware of. No.

Ged Hall: 00:02:34

Well, we didn't have courses then to kind of mix between the disciplines.

So, no, me being a chemist and you being an engineering, we kind of like,

Tony Bromley: 00:02:40

and for context, we also didn't have social media, we didn't have internet, we didn't have emails that might have come across each of us paths. So.

Ged Hall: 00:02:48

No, I remember actually registering for the Amdahl, you remember the, um, the mainframe that the university had?

Tony Bromley: 00:02:56

Oh,

it was, was it Janet, the other word?

Ged Hall: 00:02:58

Yes, yes,

yes. And I, uh, I had a mate who I'd been at university with in London, and I knew he was doing a PhD at Bath. So I guessed is I guessed. What his, what his email address might be. So that was the first email I ever sent, I think.

Tony Bromley: 00:03:17

Fantastic.

Ged Hall: 00:03:18

During the late part of my first year of PhD.

So that must have been about: 1991

Tony Bromley 00:03:33

Oh, so it wouldn't have worked. It wouldn't have worked

Ged Hall: 00:03:35

anyway. Yeah. And, and, uh, then you went into industrial R and D, which I did too.

Yeah. So, although I did a bit longer. So your industrial R and D was between 92 and 96? Yes. Where I did 10 years,

Tony Bromley: 00:03:49

right?

Ged Hall:: 00:03:49

Yeah. Yeah. Um, and then you did a postdoc and then moved into a teaching fellowship back at. LEED

Tony Bromley: 00:03:56

back at Leeds.

Yeah,

Ged Hall: 00:03:57

yeah. Now interestingly, I applied for a postdoc about halfway through my, uh, 10 years in industry at Manchester.

And, um, I. They offered it to me, but the, you know, the interview process was so weird, um, that I decided not to go for it, but it was good leverage to kind of get a few more things at work that I really wanted, that I wasn't getting. Yes. So that worked out really well anyway. Um, coming back to, coming back to you rather than talking about me, which I always end up doing.

Tony Bromley: 00:04:29

Okay.

Ged Hall: 00:04:29

Um, so the other thing that kind of, um. Links together, um, was during that teaching fellowship, you developed your interest in development, didn't you? Yeah. That really took off at that time. And that's when you joined UMIST. So for those of you who don't remember that, university of Manchester, Institute of Science and Technology?

Yes. Now. It, it was in the latter stages of you being there where it merged with Manchester, was it?

Tony Bromley: 00:05:01

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it became, and there was no way, they weren't gonna have the words University of Manchester in the title when the two institutions merged. So Yes. University of Manchester merged with UMIST and became University of Manchester.

Ged Hall: 00:05:12

Yes, absolutely. And, and you started your permanent research and development role in 2002, so about 18 months or so before Yeah, before I did. Um, and then you returned to Leeds. Um, in 2006.

Tony Bromley: 00:05:27

Yes.

Ged Hall: 00:05:28

Yeah. Now, interestingly, when that role was advertised, we both knew that we'd each look at it really strongly, didn't we?

Tony Bromley: 00:05:36

Yeah, we did,

Ged Hall: 00:05:37

but all sorts of reasons that we'd shared, uh, with each other up to that point. Now, I decided not to apply mainly because. My, my marriage at that time hadn't quite fallen apart. Um, if it had have a few months later when it, a few, uh, years, a few months later, actually when it did, I really wish I had applied to it.

d working with you since that: 2004

Yeah. Um, and how we, we talked about how that could move into, how do you evaluate. Yes. Research impact really kind of really helped me at the time, kind of cement, cement that. And uh, and really I still use that. Information today in, in terms of helping researchers think about, um, so yeah, you could definitely be in the research impact here a bit, but I think, I think it's right that it stands aside.

So, yeah. Um, welcome, um, to it.

Tony Bromley: 00:06:56

Thank you very much.

Ged Hall: 00:06:58

So, as I've said in that long, long rambling intro, you've been in researcher development since 2002 and obviously always been passionate about it. So tell us some more about what actually kindled that passion maybe during that teaching fellowship that you did.

Tony Bromley: 00:07:14

Yeah, it's, is this where I have to sort of rock back in my old chair, like the old man and say, oh, what I remember in 1992. The, I suppose if I, if I tell my sort of story in a development context as, as well in terms of the context of what I went on to do, um, I think I reached a point in the research that I was doing at the time that I think a number of people re, um, reached and some people, uh, who've done the degrees, PhDs and postdocs in the subject area.

There's an often talk in our area about failure. In terms of not becoming the academic in that field and moving to something, uh, different. And perhaps that's, you know, that's a theme that might wanna talk about in terms of the culture. But I really did recognise that I did material science and engineering.

So all up until I got the professional development role, it was all, all my works in material science and ENG engineering. But I really got the sense when I went into the teaching role, actually I wasn't interested in the research and I, at the time, I was like many, uh, postgraduates going into post-doc positions.

If you'd have asked me, I'd have said I wanted to do an academic role, but there was a few things I, well, I realised I wasn't passionate enough about it. Mm-hmm. I realised I didn't care and I also felt I wasn't good enough, and I didn't mean that in a negative sense. I looked at the academics around. The around the room and when we sit and have coffee and the, the mathematical physicist who was just ridiculous in terms of the mathematics that he could do, really nice guy.

He's still at Leeds. Um, and I just thought, I just, I haven't got the passion to do this. But what was happening is I was doing more and more in the teaching side, the teaching fellowship, and I actually really enjoyed working with people and that, you know, occasionally you're lucky enough up for somebody to come up to you at the end and say, you know what, that was really useful.

I've actually found something useful outta this. And. That it's that reward as well. So it's both. It's for yourself and it's, it's for, you know, you've been to this, I think there's a selfishness in it as well. Mm-hmm. Uh, so I just found that re. I found that far more rewarding and also the sort of subject I was doing.

I spent a lot of time in electron microscopy rooms. Now people, if people know electron microscopy, they'll know what I mean. But if, if you don't know it, that is a pitch black room. You're looking down extremely small TV screen with one eyeball or sometimes, I mean, it's changed a little bit. Now you get computer screens, but you spent a lot of.

hours looking at inanimate object that wouldn't speak back to you in a darkened room. I just, I needed to go and speak to some people. I needed to get outta that room so that, uh, I got interest in the teaching side of things. And then the, uh, the role that UMIST, uh, came of, I also did actually, um, to shout out for the University of Leeds Learning and Teaching Certificate at the time, Postgraduate Certificate Learning and Teaching in Higher Education, uh, which really opened my eyes as well because.

I was hoping that I was, I was always quite an open scientist and I did, I wasn't one of those scientists who said, uh, let's say someone horrendous thinks social science is not a science. Those sort of things. I wasn't like that, but it was that teaching course that really opened my, my eyes to what theoretical stuff there was in teaching and how, how much more it was than what I'd worked out myself.

And the odd thing here. And then it really, I just really enjoyed it all. I thought, yeah, this is the sort of thing. For me. So I looked over the development type opportunities. So I did that morphing from one field to another.

Ged Hall: 00:10:38

Yeah, that's, uh, that's really interesting. There's, again, loads of overlaps, um, with, with my experiences not surprising really.

'cause it, it has been a. A fairly similar trajectory from, yeah, from kind of fundamental STEM stuff.

Yeah.

To kind of doing nothing like fundamental STEM stuff. Um, yeah, it's, uh, and, and a lot of the things you said in terms of, you know, not good enough, um, not interested enough, you know, I think, I think if I'd have been interested enough, I'd have been good enough.

Tony Bromley: 00:11:13

Well, possibly. Yeah.

Yeah,

yeah. There is that.

Ged Hall: 00:11:16

So, so, yeah. So. And the, the real, the real fun thing. You, you, you know, you mentioned that definitely applies to me. And, and you know, back in our early days there was a real big injection of cash Yes. And resources into, um, into kind of. Absolutely changing the sector and providing training courses.

You know, we've, we've laughed just before this interview about, you know, what were the training courses on offering in our PhDs,

Tony Bromley: 00:11:45

nothing

Ged Hall: 00:11:45

Health and safety, you know, and, and did we get anything else? No, we just floundered about and tried to learn it ourselves, didn't we? Um, so that big injection of cash. I came from the UK research councils to improve the experience of early career researchers, and it's colloquially known as Robert's Money after the man who wrote the report.

Yeah. That led to the funding. Lovely Gareth, you know, I really miss him. Yeah. Um, so what project or activity did that investment enabled the, you enjoyed the most or got the biggest satisfaction from?

Tony Bromley: 00:12:19

Well, well, one

, uh,: 2002

Mm-hmm. And I joined UMIST in the, in the role in, in some like September of, of, of that year. Yeah. But the, I mean, there's a few things. Um, obviously the impact side, which is it was. Fascinating for me if I've gone to, but I think it was just simply the recognition, the funding, the, the way it grew, the sector massively.

It established us. It went on for multiple years. Uh, we wouldn't have anything like we have today if without that funding. And also o obviously within that institute, institu, each individual institution got a proportion of money dependent upon how many. People they had. Um, so all sorts of staff were employed and all sorts of projects happened.

e back from UMIST to Leeds in: 2006

Um, so. I got invited to join something which became known as a Rugby Team, which is, has, has done nothing but confuse people over the years. You can still Google Rugby Impact Framework, which I've not, I've not done for a while, but I presume it still comes up 'cause the internet doesn't forget, does it? No.

Um, but that, that was the evaluation question. So. I, I think it's because of the background I came from. And I think a lot of us in this profession come from the same background. We, we have an interest in researchers, a lot of us have PhDs, and even if we don't, we've got, you know, experience and uh, interest in research.

And I felt like the development of research is needed to be held to the same standards it were, if that's the right way of phrasing it. So a lot of what we do, and I think still to this day, we can talk anecdotally, so. Uh, anything that I did in terms of presentation, I, I, that's, it's just a simple, a simple example in terms of a course.

I might have done a presentation skills workshop. I always challenge challenge myself to how is this research what I'm telling people or is this my anecdotal experience and experience of watching and speaking to people over the years? And it is predominantly, well, the latter rather than the former. And.

I felt like, well, we haven't even per, I still don't think we've done some studies yet. There's one in International Journal of Research Development about presentation. But have we, um, sat down and, uh, watched, I dunno, a thousand presentations at the conference, uh, against some sort of criteria, talked to academics, talk to the researchers.

Done some changes and then seeing if the presentations are better received or not, and that work isn't there. So a lot of the impact stuff that got interesting was because of what I, myself personally needed. Um, for the body of evidence that I had in my material science subject, I wouldn't, I wouldn't have stood up and talked about how you make steel because anecdotally.

I talked to Bob in Steelworks and he said, oh, apparently you throw a bit of this in a bit and it comes out lovely. And I felt, I mean, exaggerating to make the point, but I felt we did too much of that. So the, that's where going into the impact, um, and I, you know, eventually we, the impact framework, um, I Predo predominantly wrote as on behalf of the team of people that we had.

Mm-hmm. And that went on to be, um, na certainly national uk. Um, I think it's known. To some extent beyond, uh, the uk.

Ged Hall: 00:16:04

Yeah,

absolutely.

Tony Bromley: 00:16:05

But it's a really exciting,

it is an interesting challenge to do actually.

Ged Hall: 00:16:07

Yeah. Yeah. It's fascinating you picked up on the presentation side of things. 'cause obviously I used to do that course in my, in my early days at Nottingham and um.

Being a chemist, um, I actually found that the Royal Society of Chemistry had done, um, a bit of observational research. Yes. So they'd, um, in, in their present, in their kind of seminars that they were, they were doing, they would have somebody at the side of the seminar who would estimate the average height of people's heads above the desk.

Tony Bromley: 00:16:37

Right.

Ged Hall: 00:16:39

And every, every single presentation, it would start high. And get lower and lower as people getting more and more bored. Yeah. Which, you know, which is the, which is the hypothesis, I guess. Yes. And it was, you know, and, and then as they recognised that we were coming towards the end of the presentation and moving to the next person presenting, the height of the head would come up.

And, and when you look at the, you know, the psychology research, that's what, that's the curve of recall. Yes. So as you know, so I did use to talk about that at least Yes. In, in my, uh, yeah, in my workshop.

Tony Bromley: 00:17:19

And there's, I mean, there's research on the, on the teaching side about lectures and about how you change things and get people's interest back again after, uh, yeah, 10 minutes.

And, and so yeah, another examples of, uh, uh, straightforward, I'm just shooting a straightforward examples. We do quite. Complex things these days, but project management was another one which I was interested in. And actually the impact work that I've done, people would, would recognise project management in it.

And it's, I'm an engineer and that's something that I can pin things on. Um, but I'm doing, when you do a course on how to project manage a research degree, I, I still haven't seen the research where we have even done some social science type research, talked to researchers in different subjects about how did you manage your PhD?

Mm-hmm. Um, and, and because. Another aspect of the impact, another aspect of the evidence base is, is that critique that we get often gets profession from a postgrad researcher, that it's too generic, whatever it is that we're doing is too generic. Well, how you manage your research, your research and your research degree is probably quite different from my scale of engineering through to social science arts.

Mm-hmm. Observational type, uh, research. So. The, the person in our, in our sessions may actually be correct to some, to some extent, but there's a whole, I mean, I'd like to see the research, the whole vast areas of research untapped that we could find out some fantastic things for which would help

researchers and postdocs going forward.

Ged Hall: 00:18:39

Yeah. Which should, which kind of. Um, you know, in some ways disappoints me in that kind of research impact perspective. Yeah. 'cause all this work that could help to make actually the world a better place and, you know Yeah. The, the world of research to be a better place. So, coming on to kind of the next question, you know, over the years, uh, you know, we've had our old man conversations and like.

Oh God, it's still rubbish, isn't it? You know, there's, there's still this that needs to change and that that needs to change and, and culture change can be really slow. Although, kind of made me think, you know, when, when we were in our first roles, it was like most of the academics around the university would go, why do we need that?

Tony Bromley: 00:19:21

Yes, absolutely.

Ged Hall: 00:19:22

And, and now it's, it's a case of we haven't got that. Why have we not got that? Yeah. So it has, it has changed over, over time, but it. That culture change can be really slow in academia. So I'm just, just asking you to kind of look back and go what aspect of research culture did you really want to and think should have changed, but the pace of change you found really frustrating?

So let's get the frustration out the way

Tony Bromley: 00:19:49

there's, I think the, the frustration for me is in the postdoctoral research area in general, and it's, it's. It is, it's beyond the development side. So I think, uh, in the UK we've had Concordats and, and uh, there's been various equivalents of some similar sorts of things in, in Australia, the US and what have you.

hat. That was an old thing in: 1992

So. It was no an eyeopener for me in R and D in, in industry. And I'm, I only did it for, well, I think four or five years. But I was glad I did it because, um, that was a big company and we worked on, um, various factory projects and, but once that, once that factory was up and running, then you, you moved on to whatever the other problem was.

So it was, it was a pool of researchers in R and D who, who tackled whatever problem came next. But then it struck me in. The academic system. We don't do that. So you, you talked about with the postdoc interview you had in Manchester, I started from that context, I was reading postdoctoral, um, job, job specs in our department, particularly in the area that I was in, in material science.

And I'm thinking, well that is so specific. There's probably only two or three people in the UK who could do that. And I think I know all three of them. And they're actually got jobs elsewhere. Yeah. But what the, the, certainly what the UK research councilors have said, and I agree with in terms of postgraduate research, is that it opens up opportunities for you go all over the place.

And one of the things employers are most interested in is the ability to think and, and how you look at problems. So I. There's no reason why a university couldn't move to a, a more of an R and D type setup, where it has mm-hmm. 10 researchers in material science and whatever projects come in, you still have the funding to get, and, and it, it carries on.

You could do that, of course. What that would do if you far less positions, I think it'd be far less wastage in terms of people going, if it is wastage, people make positive choices to go to other things in the way that I did outside of the science, but we're still doing. There's a limit and I think we maybe released, um, maybe reached or reaching a limit of what we can do to support postdoctoral researchers within the same system.

Ged Hall: 00:22:37

Yeah, I mean it's, uh, you know, my experience is exactly the same. Um, you know, when I was in industrial R and D, we might have had some, we call them contractors, so people on short term contracts, they're probably made, only made up. Five to 10% of the total resource. Yeah. People resource. Um, so, you know, if we're just doing it in headcount, you know, we were about a thousand strong, something like that.

So, you know, not many people really out of that. And the rest of them were all on, um, ongoing contracts as yeah, as we call them. But it, you know, everybody had that. Um, almost, uh, annual objective to kind of make sure that actually your salary was underpinned by money coming in from Yeah. From the wider business.

You know, we, you know, we were part of a big corporate so that we'd be getting money from the wider business as well as other mm-hmm. Um, as well as other clients from outside of the, of our corporate, um, umbrella. Yeah. Um, I, and, and that's the way it works in industry. Why, you know. Uh, you know, I guess to some extent some of the funding issues, you know, um, only 80% of, um, of, uh, uh, of the full economic cost

Tony Bromley: 00:23:53

Yes.

Ged Hall: 00:23:54

Is provided that is an issue where, yeah. You know, when we were writing a, uh, when we were writing a proposal for a client, it was cost plus profit. Yes. Yeah. Um, which is a big difference. Yeah. Um, in terms of the income to the, to the organisation. But you know. Not a big, it's not a big task to solve that if somebody had had the, have the bravery to go.

Tony Bromley: 00:24:17

Yes. Yeah.

Ged Hall: 00:24:20

Anyway, anyway, enough of the frustration.

Shall we get onto the,

Tony Bromley: 00:24:24

well, I mean, one of the positives is it just, again, as a, as anecdotal, and I said I wanted evidence based. Yeah, I'll do anecdotal. Um. When, when you've mentioned this already, when the Roberts money first came in and, and universities, like the University of Leeds were finding they had two, 300,000 pounds a year.

Um. To spend and that you used to sit round the table at University of Leeds had a Graduate Board. Uh, and there'll be equivalents all over the university sector and system. And that's, the Graduate Board is responsible for making sure PhDs operated as they should within the university. Um, and we did begin with people saying what we're getting this money for, I don't wanna.

Do anything. We don't need it. We don't need, what do we, you know, PhD people, they do the PhD, they do the science. What do they need all this for? And then, um, I can't remember how many years it was, but of course the government money comes to an end at some point. But it was, was it 5, 6, 7 years down the line where the Roberts, what we called the Roberts money stopped.

It was something like that. Yeah. It

was somebody out zero though.

Ged Hall: 00:25:21

It was at least three or four. Four.

Tony Bromley: 00:25:22

It was a few years.

Ged Hall: 00:25:23

Yeah. I mean, when I was at Nottingham we were getting 750,000 each year.

Tony Bromley: 00:25:30

We're probably getting more, I probably, colleagues actually, particularly Heather Sears used to look after that. She'd probably sit, she listens to this,

Ged Hall: 00:25:37

she'd be going, it was more than that. You've got a bit senile though,

Tony Bromley: 00:25:41

possibly. Uh, but it, in terms of the, anecdotally, so I was on the Graduate Board through the full length period. Mm-hmm. We had those, what are we gonna do with this? Why do we need the money? And what I loved is when it came to the end, academics around the table saying, how are we gonna cope with this?

We need the money. This is, you know, we've done this, that, and the other. And I thought, well, that was a terrific measure of impact. And I, I didn't, I didn't, I just let 'em talk. I thought, this is nice. I wanted some record this. I thought, well, I thought, can I record? I thought you probably are, probably, I'm folded in ethics, uh, but I'm gonna record it anyway.

So that, so that change is fabulous. And I think we. As a professional established. Mm-hmm. And I think that's really good. Yeah. And I think, uh, could it, and I love that. Um. There's, there is more of an evidence base there. You've got people like I've got mention Kay Guccione in the work she does and there's so many people I could mention, which hope I don't offend any for not mentioning them, but, uh, you know, set starting that research, education development, scholarship, um, conference.

Um, that's what we needed. We needed a conference. Um. Denise Dear was another one who at University of Cambridge (now at University of East Anglia) , um, she started what became the International Journal of Research and Development and Scholarship. So this is part of my, looking at my original subject area, material science and engineering and thinking, well, we have a journal, we have a conference.

We have, I think just a normal skeleton of academia that would get people talking and develop. The ed, the evidence base and, and the opportunity to write Yeah. And this sort of thing. And those, those planks are in now. And I think that those, that wouldn't have happened without the, uh, Roberts money coming in.

The support of the national organisation, particularly people at Janet Metcalfe now Ellen and Pearce who've. Ellen left a few years ago and turns, I think, Janet's, Janet Metcalfe still?

Ged Hall: 00:27:35

I think so, yes. Still doing it? I think so.

Tony Bromley: 00:27:38

Um, you know, phenomenal work at lobbying right to the top of government and which we've got a lot to thank for.

Yeah. Um, you

Ged Hall: 00:27:45

know, I really wanted to, so when Ellen got that job, but that was another one that I looked at. I'd really love to have that. Yeah. Um, but the, you know, the move between Nottingham and Cambridge just probably wasn't on at that time. Yeah,

Tony Bromley: 00:27:59

I'm not, I can't say everybody loves us and you will still find the academics saying, well, why do we do this thing?

Uh, but yes, it's certainly we've moved on a very positively from where, where we were.

Ged Hall: 00:28:10

Yeah. So, so that's kind of my next question. Can you, you know, what's the, been the big highlight for you in the changes, um, in the culture since you've been in the profession?

Tony Bromley: 00:28:22

I think, well, to be honest, I might have covered them.

Um, I think it is that acceptance and it is the planks of, um, you can do it,

Ged Hall: 00:28:30

you can do a personal highlight. You don't have to do a,

Tony Bromley: 00:28:33

well, I, I mean, I, I did, I did like the impact work. I enjoyed the impact work and I enjoyed the impact work that led into the dynamic development work, which I did with another, another group of people.

Um, and I think that. I sometimes, uh, I dunno how other researcher developers like yourself think about this, but I sometimes wonder if I am doing researcher development with researchers for the researchers' whole benefit or also for my own developmental change as well. So have I using them as a vehicle to develop personally myself because I've learned, I've learned so much from people over this and I've learned so much from.

One of the things, uh, a personal highlight is my, I feel like I've got much more appreciation of all sorts of research. Mm-hmm. I, I said, I said earlier, I don't think I came in. I hope I didn't come into. Working research across the board as an engineer, thinking all the engineering and science

Ged Hall: 00:29:26

is real research.

Tony Bromley: 00:29:28

Yeah. I don't think I was, I don't think I was that bad, but doing the impact work also opened my eyes in terms of how you do research in other areas. 'cause I used to joke about it and if I wanted, I used to particularly work on engineering ceramics and one of the aspects of engineered ceramics, which, uh, is that, well, I.

Obviously they are quite brittle. Mm. Um, they're very strong, but they're brittle. So my PhD was looking at if you can make 'em a little bit, uh, tougher. So I used to make a lump of ceramic, put in a machine, break it and get a number. Um, but I soon realised at trying to do the impact work, we actually, you can't put people in the machine, break it and get a number.

Doesn't work like that. So it was, I, uh, I perhaps thought that the science research was the harder one. But the more I try to do the impact and working with people, I, I would probably say it's the other way around.

Ged Hall: 00:30:21

Yeah. Yeah. I think I whole heartedly agree with you a final position that, uh, that it is harder and mainly because there's so many more variables in a system of humans than there are in a

Yes.

In a

system of. Materials you squash together into a new, into a new form. Yeah. Um, absolutely. You know, I kind of, kind of oddly agree with that. And just coming onto that remind, reminded me of, um, of another situation. Um, so we used Robert's money. Yeah. We keep mentioning his name. We, he's a, he was a fantastic guy.

Tony Bromley: 00:30:55

Well, we wouldn't be here again without, he supported all our careers.

Ged Hall: 00:30:58

Yes, absolutely. And um, so we used some of that money to, um. Recruit and we called them demonstrators mainly. 'cause that was the, the language that was in vogue at the time. Yes. You know, you demonstrated in the lab or you demonstrated in,

Tony Bromley: 00:31:14

well you, you would've been, originally, you would demonstrate an experiment as suppose.

Ged Hall: 00:31:17

Yes, absolutely. Um, but it was to support the, um. The presentation skills elements. So, um, they were, that meant we could offer more kind of practice sessions Yes. To, um, uh, to the rest of the postgraduate and postdoctoral community. And we, we brought them together and we gave them a kind of one day training course where they, you know, and it was experiential.

They had to give each other feedback and give feedback on the feedback. Um, and uh, I, you know, a couple of them were sat at at lunchtime and they were just asking each other what they were doing, and there was an applied mathematician male, um, talking to, um. She was doing art history. Um, so, um, she was American, um, looking at, uh, European art history.

So, yeah. Um, and they started talking about like kind of their different methodologies. And I remember like about halfway through the conversation I heard. That's not real research.

Tony Bromley: 00:32:21

Oh, yes.

Ged Hall: 00:32:21

From the mathematician.

Yeah.

And, uh, I could have almost killed him, um, but I kind of took him to one side and said, you know, your personal bias in in that cannot come through when you are watching these presentations.

Yes. And hopefully, hopefully the kind of wider message that isn't just that opinion is not. Shouldn't be heard. Hopefully he heard the kind of subtext that that opinion is actually false. Yeah. Too. Um, so hopefully that was the case. So I'm not so sure. He was a bit of an arrogant, don't say the other

words.

Yeah.

So you mentioned dynamic development, which is one of your big legacies, uh, for the, for the community of, uh, of researcher developers and others actually. Because if you. If you, if you're developing anyone, whether they're a researcher or not, this is a useful, useful, uh, kind of theoretical construct to kind of think about.

Um, I. Now Vitae have just released, um, the update to the Researcher Development Framework. Now you and I can remember when that was just the joint skills statement joint and it was joint skills and it was less than a side of A4. Yeah. Um, how would you like the sector to kind of put the two together for maximum benefit?

Tony Bromley: 00:33:42

Well, it's also in, in, in that I've only been, um, how long have been retired? Not that long. But you, you soon, you soon get out of it. So I didn't, I didn't, you know, there's no reason why I would know that Viti had done something. 'cause I haven't been looking. Yeah. But a, a new thing coming along, even in those short.

Those short months. I think the Research Development Framework, I think was very effective, um, in getting people to think. Now some people, uh, will agree wholeheartedly and, and say, yes, you know, I, I can see all the aspects and I think it's in, it's interesting, important. I think other people can say, well, it should have this and it shouldn't have that in it, or should we?

Do we have a generalised framework, but I think it was very useful in getting people to think. And that's where I come on the, on the dynamic development side. Um. For me, it's, uh, I wanting people to think about themselves and how, how they personally develop and what's important to them and their value systems and all that sort of stuff.

So I think the research development framework is a really good starting point. And vehicle I. To challenge yourself provided, and nobody in Researcher Development Framework said it should do this. But some people can get, you can get daunted by thinking, I mean, I look through it. I've had a, I had, I hope to some extent a successful research career.

And I look down a lot of it and think, well, I'm not very good at that. The reason, I'm not so bad at that. And so, but it still gets you to talk about all the sorts of, um, areas that you, you should think about. And what I was trying to do with. There is a, the dynamic development stuff is, um, particularly these, it's a central diagram I have with some dichotomies in it.

Um, and I talk about, um, mo dynamics and statics. Um, so this, I haven't spoke about this for age. It's what, what, what did I say? Shorter? I can see, I can see the diagram. But that was about me giving some thought to how we develop people theoretically. And this comes from all the, um, thinking about evidence-based, but also me learning more about psychology, about social science.

And I thought, well, what's the basis for my viewpoint and how I'm developing some, some person? Mm-hmm. Um. And I also came to it from the impact work because in the impact work there's something called realistic evaluation and there's, there's a diagram in there that looks like a rugby ball. Mm-hmm. It's a rugby ball that's got two lines in it and it's fa, I've used the diagram in my work and it's fascinated me for years.

So I would, I'd encourage people to look it up. I think it's. I think it's probably, I think it's probably one of the most profound diagrams there is in relation to people and evaluation. Mm-hmm. Uh,

Ged Hall: 00:36:22

was he Ray Pawson?

Tony Bromley: 00:36:23

It was Ray Pawson, of

course. And actually I looked into this and I didn't know he was a Leeds professor.

Yeah. But I didn't know that at the time when I was looking into it. So I, professor needed to get out, I needed to get outta Leeds more. But the, I'm, I'm rambling now. Where was I? But the, anything that gets people to think about themselves and what's important to them, um. Just doing that research and using this diagram that I have, I learned, I've learned a few things, uh, about people themselves.

The what I talk about dynamics, what I mean, uh, is what drives people personally. So the diagram I'm talking about is you, you analyse this situation. I. You analyse yourself and that allows you to put yourself into that situation, some thought about it. And quite often you, you analyse a situation which you think you want, like an academic role.

Mm. And I've sat with people, well, let's analyse the situation and then let's an, uh, do some analysis of you. And really, if you want, the academic role should match perfectly. Here's, here's what drives me or what I want to do, and here's what the academic role and what makes sense in the academic role.

Mm-hmm. And it should match perfectly. And quite often it doesn't. Mm-hmm. And also. Sometimes the drivers that people have, um, can need to be questioned and a bit negative sometimes. Mm-hmm. So I had someone who just in conversation, um, they wanted to please their supervisor and it was a massive driver for them.

Mm-hmm. Uh, and I didn't say they shouldn't do that. But it was kind of, it seemed to be a light bulb moment for them. I just said to them, well, you recognise that driver. Is it always going to work for you? And my, all the way, my philosophy with researcher development is about awareness. Mm-hmm. Because if you can be aware, and it's not just researcher development in general, in life, isn't it?

If you can be aware of what you're doing and, and impact it has on you and anybody that least you have choice. Mm-hmm. And also, I dunno if we do some cliches, say I'm fairly disorganised or something like this. Well you might think, well, do you know what? That's me. So yeah, I'll keep that one. But at least you're aware that that's how, how you are and who you are.

And

yeah,

so that Research Development Framework, it does get you to be able to analyse the research globally and then see yourself in that research and you can, anything that helps combine with thought, uh, and on the dynamic development. Um. Ideas and getting yourself to think about you and where you want to go and what you want to do.

Ged Hall: 00:38:44

Yeah. It's um, it really does help in terms of kind of moving you from trainer to coach, doesn't it? In terms of Yeah.

In terms of you thinking and, uh, and that, that's one of the things that's really, you know, helped me to do that. And we've, we've been talking about this for years 'cause it's, yeah. Um, you know, it's like I was actually managing, um.

The, the. Um, the group. So it is a, you, you got some funding through some Leeds teaching and learning, um, awards. Um, and I was actually managing the group to make those decisions at that point, and I was like, I've gotta, I've gotta kind of lean back and kind of gotta give it. But, uh, I was really delighted when you got that.

You got that money and you were able to have that, uh, collaboration with some of our, uh, some of our, uh, other colleagues who've also retired. We'd known him for years. Yeah.

Tony Bromley: 00:39:40

Oh, no, it's a good, it's a good collaboration. We, we, was it Socrates? We got to at some point,

Ged Hall: 00:39:45

I'm sure you did with Richard Hinchcliffe a good on Richard.

We have,

Tony Bromley: 00:39:49

well, we have a train connection, me and Richard as well. We both have a, a thing. A

Ged Hall: 00:39:53

thing about trains? Yes. Uh, when I used to share a train journey with Richard when we were both, uh, worked in Liverpool, he, um, he and some other people on that train used to, I won't say bore me stupid, but it was, it was like, I have no idea what they're talking about now.

Tony Bromley: 00:40:12

There's also, it's quite a word digress, but it's a question of scale as well. Richard was always interested in the actual big, big scale trains. Yes. Yeah, I was. I'm more interested in the model size, so quite scale difference.

Ged Hall: 00:40:23

So Tony, I think that's taken us onto our final question. So what, what are your plans for retirement now that podcasts, developing culture, evaluating development, and just being a brilliant colleague?

Aren't taking up all of your time.

Tony Bromley: 00:40:39

Well, one thing I wanted to say. Emma Sparry, yourself, I don't know who organised it, but you, you did a Sway for and people contributed. And, uh, so as to thank everybody who contributes to that. It's, uh, it's very nice to have some nice things said about you as you retire into the, into the, perhaps the sunset.

Um. I'm going, I'm, I'm going. I'm returning to Northumberland. So myself and my partner, um, we actually went to school together, um, and we're moving back to Northumberland. So we're, we're leaving, we're returning to Northumberland 40 years, almost a day that we both left into go our different directions from high school.

So that's got a quite a nice circular, uh, thing to it. And I'm not sure, uh. I don't know what to think about the word retirement either. I don't, I don't like it really. I mean, I don't know what what it means to be honest, but I've got me interested in that. I talked about the model trains. I've always, uh, been interested in Roman or anything.

Roman as, as well. Maybe I'm just a cliche.

Ged Hall: 00:41:39

It's a good part of the world to be interested in Romans.

Tony Bromley: 00:41:40

Well, exactly. You know, we had, we had school trips and things. We've got Corbridge and Vindolanda and Hadrian's wall. I suppose it's probably one the most famous Roman things. Hadrian's wall internationally, so that's probably where the

interest,

Ged Hall: 00:41:54

yeah, certainly outside of.

Italy itself. Yeah, absolutely. Probably is. Even though there, there probably are Roman, um, remains scattered all across the, um, the Middle East and, and, and Oh, absolutely. Europe. Absolutely. But yeah, um, I mean, I've loved trips up that way, so, yeah. Yeah. Nice.

Tony Bromley: 00:42:14

So, yeah, so we refurbished a house up there at the moment, so that's, I'm, I'm learning some new skills, as it were.

That's true. So now I'm

excited about it. It's, it's gonna be good.

Ged Hall: 00:42:26

Excellent. Tony, thank you for this chat today. Um, it's always, uh, it always has been a pleasure to talk to you over the, over the odd years that we've, uh, that we've known each other. Um, but uh, before I hit the stop button on it, can you just say, and we can catch up over another cuppa.

Can you just say goodbye to all the listeners? Anything you wanna say to them?

Tony Bromley: 00:42:50

That.

I just wanna say, uh, I've enjoyed a career. It's been ups and ups and down at times, like all things are, but it's been a privilege to work with so many fantastic people all over the years, and a privilege to work with so many researchers.

And I mean, I mean that genuinely, it is a privilege. There's so many careers I could have done. I don't have any regrets about moving into the one that I did. And thank you, Ged. It's been a. Good working with you and everybody else for so many years. Thank you.

Intro: 00:43:19

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