(Episode 124) Research Culture 1.0: Reflections from Cat Davies, it has been a blast!

Intro: [: 00:00:00

Emma Spary: Hi, it's Emma, and for those of you who've listened to my podcast episodes before, I have a new job title. I'm now the Associate Director for Researcher Development and research culture at the University of Leeds. And as we go through this podcast, that will start to make a bit more sense. So I've been involved in the research culture work at Leeds for quite a while, and in that role I've been fortunate enough to work with our Dean for Research culture Professor Cat Davies for regular listeners of my episodes, you will have heard me reference Cat on more than one occasion. Either supporting my ideas or showcasing some of her own achievements. And it's with a touch of sadness that I'm doing this [00:01:00] episode to celebrate everything Cat has achieved in her role as she prepares to step out today. So in this episode, I'm taking Cat on that dreaded word journey, covering the start, the middle, and the closing of her role as Dean.

And I've deliberately not used the word end. Because I'm certain this is not the end of Cat being a champion for research culture. So welcome, Cat. Do you want to do a quick hello before we jump into the questions?

Cat Davies: Hello? Um, just reaching my tissues before we start. Um, yes. Uh, so yeah, really good to be back here.

the people that we've worked [: 00:02:00

Emma Spary: Brilliant. So we'll get stuck in, uh, as I said, I've pitched this as the beginning, the middle, and the closing. So let's start right at the beginning. Your role was a first at Leeds, and it was actually one of the first across the sector. There wasn't anyone to hand over to you, and there were very few people who were attempting similar things.

So I wanted to reflect on what actually attracted you to the role in the first place.

Cat Davies: I can remember it really clearly. You know, when the first papers started coming to, um, some of the faculty research committees, um, where people were starting to talk about this thing called research culture. And, you know, what did it mean, what was it trying to do?

hat we think of as excellent [: 00:03:00

Um. I remember a colleague on one of those research committees going coor wouldn't touch that with a barge pole and I just felt entirely the opposite. I felt like, yeah, this is where I want to be. It's where I want to get stuck in. It's where I can hopefully, um, make a difference. Cliche. Does that sound, you know, I had.

like, hmm, this is my chance [: 00:04:00

And it was the chance to, um. Really look at, you know, that, that very long list of things that you know, researchers are aware of. So things like authorship. You know who gets cited on papers, who gets named on papers, um, how we reward each other, how we decide what is good research, um, how we, um, employ and, and hire people.

That stuff, which is kind of happening around the edges of what we think of as our day jobs in research. But actually. These things are hugely important. They can, you know, they have the potential on the negative side to really derail the progress that we make in research, the rigor that we do research with people's wellbeing.

hose things which were often [: 00:05:00

Emma Spary: Okay, so there you have it.

Pretty much everything, uh, to help you decide you want to take on quite a challenging role. I'll be honest, I've, I've been through this with you and it's not always been easy. When you took on the role, you already had some very clear ideas about what you wanted to achieve for yourself, but also for the culture at Leeds, and then across the sector as well.

But can you remember what they were?

Cat Davies: What I wanted to achieve.

Emma Spary: Yeah. Mm.

Cat Davies: Yeah, I mean, those, there's a few things which have, have stayed constant and a few things which I've kind of learned along the way that I've, I've wanted to, to change or influence. So I think probably since, you know, since doing my PhD, if not before.

odels, um. But they've often [: 00:06:00

Um, and I really wanted to elevate and diversify, you know, those, those ideas and those role models of, of what makes a, a good researcher. Um, so to have some kind of steer on that, I think I really wanted to do, um, I wanted to actually bring together academics and professional services colleagues, uh, in the research endeavor.

ing and, and doing research, [: 00:07:00

'cause the role has continued while I've, the role has gone alongside, um, my regular kind of research professorship in, in language development. And so I've had to juggle those two things. But I wanted to draw from the other side and to, um, use my research training. In this new field to really, um, lend that kind of credibility to the research culture endeavor to produce some, um, you know, data-driven, um, business cases and evidence as to why this stuff has to change and, and how it can improve our research culture.

ho is, um, well, how can you [: 00:08:00

Um, and she. Said a while ago, she said, we need to make research culture work for everyone, one practical change at a time. And that practicality has been really important to me. Um, although I've had to be strategic, it's the, you know, concrete, measurable, tenable, um, uh, changes that has been really

Emma Spary: important to me.

Thank you. Um, so I remember when you came into this role, one of the first things you said to me was, we need a strategy. And quite honestly, I thought, oh no, not another strategy, not another piece of paper that no one's going to read that we have to report to. But you genuinely believed it was important.

And why was that?

n. So I absolutely empathize [: 00:09:00

It was, again, going to be concrete and practical and actionable. Um, and so that was the spirit that we entered into it with. Um, so the two, two reasons, the practical reason, um, was really to contain this enormous buffet that we call research culture. You know, it contained so many different things, and I'm not gonna list all the different aspects.

boundaries, I guess. Mm-hmm. [: 00:10:00

Um, clarify what we, well, what we did was to, um, present four big kind of buckets, I suppose, for what the research culture strategy was going to contain. And that was diversifying, um, research activity, embedding EDI, open research and researcher development. So those are really big buckets and they've served us really well.

'cause they contain lots of, or they can accommodate lots of different things, but they can also draw a line and allow me and colleagues to say, yes, that's important, but it's not in the strategy, it's not what we're, um, prioritizing right now. So practically the strategy was really helpful for that, for sort of drawing a line as to what, in what was in and not in our purview.

ng field with the many other [: 00:11:00

Um, the distance we've traveled. So that was really helpful for senior buy-in, for grassroots buy-in, um, for, um, really kind of leading honest conversations, getting people in the room. The, the, the s word strategy does kind of focus minds actually. So yeah, that was the sort of political reason, um, around credibility to go with the practical reason of, of, um, drawing some boundaries.

y an icky one in the middle. [: 00:12:00

Cat Davies: It is a very nice question and I think I might, um, respond to it a bit negatively actually, but I will correct. So the, it's been very easy to find problems. So as I said, when the role came up, you know, it was like, roll our sleeves up. There's so much we can get stuck into here. We were not short of problems to address.

So yes, finding areas, um, where people were a little bit wounded by, um, research systems or they felt excluded or there'd been some, um, unacceptable, unprofessional behaviors. Um, there were, yeah, so, so lots of kind of issues. I mean, it's a very sort of issue driven field. Uh, this is about reform, right? And, um, why would you reform something that's working well?

was very easy for me to see [: 00:13:00

So not long after I came into role. Um, we were granted along with all other English universities, um, granted some funding from Research England, which was dedicated for enhancing research culture, including the name, right? We've got a culture we need to enhance it and improve it. Um, and we decided to, um.

for, um, amounts of funding [: 00:14:00

So over the last four years. We've supported and processed more than two and a half million pounds worth of project proposals, and that contains all of the ideas, the energy, the commitment of, I think, close to 500 colleagues across the university of all different disciplines, career stages, roles, et cetera, like genuinely diverse.

So that appetite for culture change was clearly there. And, you know, people were just clamoring to get involved and to, to use this money to make changes. So that momentum was very easy to, um, to start. It was almost kind of self-propelling, right? So that, that was, was easy and, and really the best way of doing it.

needed to be done. It had to [: 00:15:00

Emma Spary: that's actually, um. It's what's driven us as a team that we are not here to do it for them. We are here to encourage and enable them to do it.

I do remember us having a, a slightly nervous moment of are we gonna launch this call and is anyone going to apply? And I think in about 24 hours we knew that yeah, we were probably onto a bit of a winner with this one.

Cat Davies: Yeah, that was not a problem. No. Yeah.

Emma Spary: So now the icky bit. What do you think has been the biggest challenge that you've had to overcome if in fact you have actually overcome it?

Hmm.

research culture. Then along [: 00:16:00

People will understand what we mean by research culture and, and on we go. But it's really been a continuous process of defining what we mean by research culture. Um, integrating other people's perceptions of what they believe research culture is 'cause that's quite, uh, informative as well when it contrasts with our own.

Um, so yeah, defining and redefining and you know, even last week I was having a conversation about what research culture isn't, isn't, and there there is a, I would say a misperception out there that research culture is like the culture of doing research. So just because an area is producing papers or increasing their numbers of pgrs or increasing their grant capture, there is a perception that this is research culture.

ch is done. So it's not just [: 00:17:00

Also, maybe it's better to say surprisingly longer, um, term than I've initially, um, imagined. Um, politically it's been really interesting four years as well, and there has been a perception that somehow good research culture compromises research excellence or research quality. Um, and you know, I've had to go in quite deep to understanding that mindset, and I completely acknowledge that it is possible to create high quality research in negative cultures.

g our evidence, showing that [: 00:18:00

You know, one example is if you want to hire the best people, the most inclusive pool is gonna help you get there. Um, so yeah, that's been a challenge I guess in pushing back against that, that narrative that this is, um, either just something additive, something else, something which is kind of a nice to have or more detrimentally it's something that compromises research quality and we know that's not the case. Um, what else has been challenging? Um, I suppose deciding on how to do this right? Yeah. Has been challenging because, as you said, this is an inaugural role. We are a fairly young team, so there's many ways we could have approach the research culture endeavor at Leeds. So one kind of dilemma I had [00:19:00] was, do we want to raise everybody up to good basic standards of, you know, passable research culture? So get that broad reach, or do we want to enable pockets of really ambitious, elaborate ideas? And I'm actually still not fixed on that. I have kind of wavered back and two, um, over the years. I think what we have now is a bit of both that we are, you know, needing to raise everyone up to that kind of hygiene standard. Um, you know, make sure our research is openly available for example, make sure we are training our postdocs right.

, and, you know, enable, um, [: 00:20:00

So that choice between like the wide approach or the pockets of excellence has been, um, difficult, I suppose, at times to, to decide on or commit to. Um, and then the other decision or dilemma I had was, do we go grassroots here? Do we engage the community first? Um, do we co-produce this endeavor with the entire university, the research, um, aspects of the university, or do we kind of go more strategically and work with very influential people?

So senior leaders, and with that one I went with the former, we went with the community driven approach, um, which has been joyous in some, uh, senses. It's been, um, um, difficult in others. It has been perhaps a trade off with the time, uh, I've been able to spend with senior leaders, um, on that. So I don't regret it, but it was a choice.

Um mm-hmm. [: 00:21:00

Emma Spary: I think that's key though, isn't it? We didn't know at the time.

It was new, it was risky. Uh, personally, I would always go for that grassroots approach because culture is about people. It's not something that I think you can dictate from on high. It has to be led by the people who are living and breathing it and also understanding that it isn't just one culture we're talking about here.

There are multiple different research cultures that make up the environment in which we work. That's right. And

Cat Davies: I've noticed that in terms of the, the language, it's a subtle change, but over the 12 to 18 months, I'm hearing and reading much more about research cultures plural than research culture and I think that's because of that recognition that there are many different, um,

h, cultures that make up our [: 00:22:00

Certainly doesn't make defining research culture any easier, though. This is true. So if I had to push you, what are you most proud of from the last few years leading this research culture work? Oh, um.

Cat Davies: Well, there's some things which I'm really proud of, but actually I can't take credit for, they've just sort of happened on my watch.

So I put in that category, um, the, the technician revolution, I would, so to speak. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, we've seen enormous changes in the recognition empowerment of our technical professionals at Leeds over the last three or four years. And that's thanks in no small part to brilliant colleagues working on the technician commitment, um, culminating in, you know, the very recent, um, technicians week and all the brilliant kind of showcasing of the work that they do.

that, but it's been really, [: 00:23:00

We, uh, wrote case studies on pre-leasing interview questions. You know, we just, we did that, we piloted it, we gathered data on the reception and the impacts of that, and we've published that. Um. Externally, and we've had a lot of really nice feedback on that. Um, externally, the same with our experiments in partially randomized allocation for grant funding um, we did the same kind of process. We tried it, we gathered data, we published it, we shared it. And you know, consult on that actually quite a lot now. Um, the other piece is the, um, piece on behavior change. So we worked [00:24:00] with, um, an external, uh, researcher using behavioral systems mapping to investigate what drives unprofessional behavior within the sector.

And again, that was a really kind of rigorous qualitative approach. Which collated a lot of data to really show some of these systemic, um, drivers of the behaviors that, that we see that really kind of threaten our research progress and wellbeing. So each of those case studies has been very satisfying actually.

um, extra support to achieve [: 00:25:00

So again, this was a data-driven, um, project which showed that the progression of, um, researchers from grades nine to 10. So the sort of pre-pro professorial stages amongst researchers who are women disabled and people of color really kind of drops off relative to other demographics. So, um, we were able to allocate um, some internal funding. We've awarded that to 36 applicants over two rounds within Leeds. Um, so from our, our surveys, we know that around 40% of, um, researchers in general feel that they have time to dedicate to their professional development. Now that drops, um, a clear 10% for, um, people with caring responsibilities.

at problem, present the data [: 00:26:00

And now we are looking at the evaluation of that. So yeah, that's also been a really satisfying project.

Emma Spary: Brilliant. And uh, Cat's mentioned quite a few things there. Um, so I will make sure that I put all of the links to our case studies, any, um, websites that we've got that, that talk about the work. The one thing I am particularly proud of is that we do share wherever we can, we are open about what works and what doesn't.

researcher development team [: 00:27:00

But this comes because you've decided that now is the right time for you to step away. So can you explain why it's the right time for you? Sure.

Cat Davies: Um, yeah, so it's been four years, as I said, in role. I think the original, um, agreement was three. Uh, but I still had stuff to do at the end of three years so we extended, um, by year and it feels like we are sort of coming to the end of research culture 1.0. As I said, it's been that period of like raising awareness, getting our heads around what is this thing, what needs to be done, clarifying, prioritizing where we, where we go first. Implementing a few things, as I said, sort of trialing a few things in different areas. And starting some early stage evaluation.

s been amazing to be part of [: 00:28:00

Um, so I think that's not helpful actually at a time where we want [00:29:00] to transfer that agency to the community a bit more. So yeah, I need to be, um, kept away probably

Emma Spary: from that next phase. I should, I should also point out to the listeners that Cat was originally doing three years and hadn't, hadn't finished everything at the end of three years.

I did try to persuade her she hadn't finished everything at the end of four years, but nah, she pushed back. She's, she's, she's off. I'm off. So, yeah. Well, we'll come back to that bit. Um, so taking you right back to the beginning, have you achieved what you hoped you would?

Cat Davies: You know, it's so hard to measure, you know, research culture with these kind of metrics.

ommend the university or the [: 00:30:00

Look at this co-production that you, you do that is open research. So I, I don't. Uh, maybe I retract what I just said, that people's research is more open, I think they're better at recognizing that what they've always been doing is open research, so that's another win. Um, I think, you know, the thing with research culture is sometimes you, I mean, you discover so much by accident because it's culture, 'cause it's really hard to pin down and, you know, I go about my regular kind of professorial duties, and I might sit on promotion panels or review a paper or whatever, and I see culture improvements in each of those things. So for example, in a promotion interview quite recently, someone was talking [00:32:00] about, um, a particular model that they use within their lab, a model of, of management within their lab, where junior staff are given a lot of responsibility for, um, putting forward papers and, you know, well facilitated, so you get that distributed leadership, um, within this particular lab, and that person had been doing it for years and you know, we, we didn't know about it. Um, so I'm cons constantly kind of finding out about these great examples of research culture. I think they've probably always been out there, but it's just about kind of surfacing that and I think having this badge and the strategy of research culture allows people to hang those, um, initiatives onto something and say, yeah, we're doing great research culture. So that's been really nice to see as well.

happening and people didn't [: 00:33:00

Yeah, that's right. It's been really important in joining all of that up. Yeah. So we're going into the closing, not the end, just the closing. I don't believe for one second, Cat, that you're gonna wake up tomorrow morning and forget all about research culture, but you are gonna be coming at this from a very different angle.

So what comes next for you and how are you going to continue to be that champion for research culture?

Cat Davies: So the honest answer is I don't know precisely what comes next for me. Um, got a period of research leave, which I'm really looking forward to, to reconnecting with my research, um, in, in early childhood education.

the UK has a, a Meta Science [: 00:34:00

Um, and I think there's lots of exciting opportunities there to get involved with, um, the meta science movement. Um, I've been advising welcome, the Welcome Trust over the last year, and, um, I've been approached by a few other funders to do something similar, uh, to really look at the impact of funders, initiatives and research culture and examine what funders responsibilities are in improving research culture.

'll be involved with, uh, REF: 2029

It's, it's helping the change rather than um, you know, imposing or testing certain, um, metrics that we need to get to. So yeah, basically ensuring that that's done in the right way.

Emma Spary: Okay. So we are almost up to time. I want to give you, um, one opportunity before I finish up to bring in anything else you want to cover that I haven't asked you about.

Ooh, um.

genuinely a part of research [: 00:36:00

You know, it does take, um, courage for sure, but it's been really satisfying and it's been a real joy to work with so many different types of people that I probably wouldn't have ordinarily come into contact with as a, as a pure researcher. Um, and to, yeah, just kind of, um, work together in amplifying the work that people do and, um, making, making good changes.

Emma Spary: Okay. So with that listeners, we are up to time. So I want to say a huge thank you to Cat for all of the work that she's done to support research culture, including providing the startup funding for this podcast. We won't forget that one. Um, I wish you all the very best with what comes next, and I will leave you to have a final word.

Cat Davies: Thanks, Emma. It's been a blast.

t on our brand new episodes. [: 00:37:00

Thanks for listening, and here's to you and your research culture.