(Episode 126) Research Impact Heroes: Dr Julie Bayley on Finding Your People

Intro: 00:00:00

Welcome to the Research Culture Uncovered podcast, where in every episode we explore what is research culture and what should it be. You'll hear thoughts and opinions from a range of contributors to help you change research culture into what you want it to be.

Ged Hall: 00:00:23

Welcome. My name is Ged Hall, and I'm the Researcher Development Team Leader at the University of Leeds.

My researcher development specialism is research impact, and that covers the development of individuals, both researchers and research impact professionals and organisational development aspects of research impact. So all of the episodes I contribute to the. Research Culture Uncovered podcast, really focus in on that space.

And they're all available via a playlist, which is in the show notes. Now, today is the second of a new series of interviews that I've kind of given the name Research Impact Heroes. And as I mentioned in the first interview in this series with Professor Mark Reed, the idea has three roots. The first is that I've been using the term for years to describe lots of different people whose work in research Impact has really helped me and inspired me in my work at Leeds.

The second root is that people across the world who work in this space nearly always talk about how wonderful a community it is with lots of collaborations and interconnections across that social network. And the final root is that this podcast has given me the um. The opportunity to just be cheeky and reach out to those people and invite them for a chat about research impact and its role in changing research culture.

Now, I usually get so much joy from those conversations that you can hardly call it work, and I'm totally expecting that today. So no pressure. Um, but, um, let's do the, the proper bio bit. So today I'm really delighted to be joined by Dr. Julie Bayley. Julie is currently Director of Research Impact and Culture and Associate Professor at Northeastern University in London.

And before joining Northeastern, nearly a year ago, she was Director of Research Impact Development at the University of Lincoln for over six years. Where she set up the Lincoln Impact Literacy Institute. Prior to that, she worked at Coventry University where she was seconded from a research role into an impact role in the runup to the first Research Excellence Framework or REF that included research impact in the uk.

That's when I first met Julie. So she presented at one of the very first research impact focused conferences in the UK on a tracking tool, an impact tracking tool that she and colleagues have developed. Now, her research interests more generally are in the applied health psychology field, but she's also published extensively on Research Impact, including a fantastic book, and this is me doing the plug, 'Creating Meaningful Impact.

The Essential Guide to Developing an Impact Literate Mindset'. If, uh, if you love this interview and you've not read the book, then you are going to love it. Okay? Now hopefully this is where the dry sounding stuff ends, and we can get into the kind of what I want these interviews to be, which is to get to know the people behind the work.

Um, and it's also, Julie is not dry at all. In, in fact, if you were to describe, you know, think of the stereotype of an academic, she probably doesn't fit any of those kind of, you know, boring, um, only talking about, uh, her work or anything like that. So, um, so those are really, um. Really important to think about.

And, uh, and actually, if you've already read Julie's book, um, I, I'll give you a second to hit pause and create yourself a list of the brilliant anecdotes that she uses. So memorable words, phrases, and metaphors. So go on, hit pause and create that list. Now I've got my list and, and because I've got that list, I always love to play Bayley Impact.

Bingo. So when you tick off all the items on your list, make a note of how long it was into the interview before she managed to do everything that you thought of. And we'll see who gets there first in, uh, in all the comments. So pens at the ready and let's welcome Julie Bayley to the Research Culture Uncovered podcast.

Hi, Julie.

Julie Bayley: 00:04:40

Oh, thank you Ged. That was lovely. How the devil are you?

Ged Hall: 00:04:42

I'm really well, thank you. And it's brilliant to be having a, a good natter with you today. Um, I mean, as I said in the, in in the intro, getting quality time with people I really respect is, is just a joy. So, yeah.

Julie Bayley: 00:04:57

Well, it's lovely to do it and I'm now deciding whether I kind of support impact Bingo or whether I resist it and just don't say the things, but I suspect they might just come out.

So we'll see how that goes.

Ged Hall: 00:05:07

Yeah, I think, I think when we get into it and you get into your flow, you'll probably, you'll probably not be able to resist just the,

Julie Bayley: 00:05:17

I suspect that's true.

Ged Hall: 00:05:18

Yeah, I'm not, I'm not gonna say any, I'm not gonna pro prod you and kind of like, um, as everybody's playing Bayley Impact Bingo right in the moment, all listeners.

d role in the runup to REF in: 2014

Julie Bayley 00:05:56

Yeah. I mean, you, you mentioned the tracker and I think that the, the story starts a, a fare while before that in that, so I, um, after. A very misjudged plan to be a professional double basist. Moved into, um, uh, did my undergrad in psychology, sociology, did a master's in health psych, and then, um, got a, a research job as a, an intervention developer, behavioural scientist, health psychology, primarily sexual health, but think public health, all sorts of things in that arena.

And one of the things that just saddened me continuously is that we're doing all these infections. Stuff wasn't changing. You could still see, you know, teeth. Pregnant teenagers unsupported and you could still see, um, you know, uh, people not getting the NHS care they needed. So there's this kind of constant conflict and, and it kind of came to the head a bit, I just thought, what is the point of a lot of stuff we're doing, it's incredibly valuable, incredibly important.

But there's this gulf. And then I went on, uh, I think my second maternity came back and there was this Jisc (the UK digital, data and technology agency focused on tertiary education, research and innovation.) funded impact project where I was kind of shepherded in as a kind of, well, you like this stuff And it turns out I did. Um, so I was the academic partner on that. We developed impact capture system. Um, and um, when we tried to roll it out, it just didn't quite work.

And it became really clear that the reason it didn't work is 'cause people just. Hadn't had chance to understand what impact was before being tasked with putting it into a system. And that really was the trigger point to become seconded as the impact person. And then since then, I've run a hybrid role as both academic and impact person.

And as, you mean, you mentioned in the introduction that then, you know, led to the Lincoln role and now at, at Northeastern London. Um, so it's, it's been a. The thing that got me into it was this wish that the stuff we did would genuinely make a difference for someone. The experience that there was a gap between what we were doing and that difference.

And then, and I'm very aware of this, the really lucky position to be able to hold a hybrid post across all of that. Um, and um, then the opportunities that brings, you know, having a foot in each of those camps.

Ged Hall: 00:07:54

Mm. Yeah. That, that hybrid roll, how, how does that feel kind of personally, I mean, what, what's, you know, we often talk about identities and things like that.

What, what, what, you know, what, what, what would you describe yourself as? I mean, hybrid always feels a bit dry, so go on, go. Let's, uh,

Julie Bayley: 00:08:10

I mean, I've defaulted to impact nerd 'cause it's about the only thing that seems to make sense, but it's an odd one, it, it's an absolute privilege. I'm under no illusion. A hell of a lot of people do not get the opportunity to have a foot in both camps and for me as a patient rep as well.

So, you know, part of that longer story there is having had poor health, vascular health. So I do a lot of work as a patient rep, which means I have this kind of triangle of being, um, a researcher research manager, impact person and patient. And it is an incredibly privileged position. I know that. But you are a square peg in a round hole.

Academia does not typically recognise more scenic roots, more portfolio things. I don't mean it's completely excluded, but there is a real challenge if you don't look like the template for progression, if you don't look like the template. So, and I think, you know, a number of us have that irrespective of what that combination is.

So I feel lucky. I will usually. Identify, I'd say as an impact nerd because it is just the only term that seems to fit all of those things. And, um, but there is always a tension on maintaining CPD and all of those things and, and just finding a, a space that, that where you can fit in that, that kind of slightly complex academic world.

Ged Hall: 00:09:28

Yeah, it's interesting. I spoke to Wade Kelly, who you know well as mm-hmm. Uh, also another, so look out for that. I'll put the link in the show notes for that interview. But I was talking to him about his, um, kind of meanderings, uh, across the, the boundary between, um. You know, the academic side and, and con, you know, full academic contract and full professional staff contract and, and that, that's, that was an interesting story.

So, you know, it, it, it's, uh, for you, you're not meandering, you know, you're always on the boundary.

Julie Bayley: 00:10:01

Yeah. And I, I think I've, over the years, rationalised. The, the opportunity that brings to look from different vantage points. And whenever I'm working with anyone who has a similar thing, who feels the pressure from each side, I try and find that book point saying, but you have a unique viewpoint because you're at that interset.

So, so yeah. So I think lucky is the right word for how I feel. But not suggesting it's all kind of shiny and, you know, um, confetti and all of that kind of stuff.

Ged Hall: 00:10:30

Yeah. Yeah. I, I guess, uh, kind of final question on this before we move on to kind of the formal questions, but what, what's the, what's the kind of irritant, what's the thing that kind of scratches at you when you kind of like event, you know, sometimes you might eventually got.

That hurts.

Julie Bayley: 00:10:47

Um, oh, we've been there many a time. Um, and, um, there's a kind of slight shout out for the STI-ENID conference that's coming up in, uh, uh, oh forgotten October, September. I forget. I've remember that. I've got a, um, a paper called Peacock's gonna peacock on kind of the things that actually irritate us, like people peacocking at meetings.

Right. So I'm very, very much in the, you didn't think Peacock was gonna be on the video list, did you?

Ged Hall: 00:11:11

I was just about to say that. 25. Just written it on, cross it off. Yeah. Yeah. Now you said it

Julie Bayley: 00:11:15

add on. Um, so, so you, I mean you, part of your earlier question was, you know, why am I in it? Why do I stay in it?

And it is the fact that we as a sector have the most incredible opportunity to make a difference. No question. We have that. So the question for me then is, what can I do? And the thing I've worked out I can do is kind of be. Facilitator, intermediary, you know, supportive. I, I dunno quite what the words are for that, but that kind of being in the space of helping people to do that so that we can make that difference and that that's the thing that keeps me in it all the time.

The irritants are the things that get in the way of that very simple premise. It's the over simplistic understanding. Various parts of the sector about what impact is, which means unrealistic expectations come down on people. That people are tasked with doing this thing called impact without actually anyone really being clear what is.

We wouldn't do that with research. Mm-hmm. We wouldn't put research as the, you know, the, the responsibility of one person and the only thing you're looking at is, is forced on us. You know, the unit of currency becomes full star. So what irritates me is that impact is still treated in pockets, not everywhere as this add-on.

So we're still fighting it. You know, you mentioned Bingo and I am a broken record. I am fully aware of that, and the reason I'm a broken record is because that message still needs to be said. I'm still meeting people every week when I go kind of round and about that haven't had chance to learn this stuff.

Mm-hmm. That's the irritant for me, that the kind of the, the illusion that the sector is mature in impact and yes it is, but that doesn't mean everybody has been given equal chance to learn it. That's what keeps me in it.

Ged Hall: 00:12:51

Yeah. Brilliant. So, yeah, uh, we, we, I've been, I think I've been connected to you on LinkedIn probably for, oh, I don't know.

12, 13 years. Yeah. Forever probably. And I've lost track of the number of times you've mentioned that you're delivering a workshop, took talking at a conference, doing a presentation of some sort, um, about impact to loads of different people. I, you know, I kind of, kind of. Try and count the number of people I might have interacted with and go, that's probably a 1% fraction of, uh, of who Julie's interacted with over the years.

So can you think back through all those, uh, all those, um, presentations and events and kind of are there any questions that you've kind of gone. Damn, that was really hard. You know, that was a hard one to answer. And um, you know, I'm just wondering, um, you've, you've recently been up to Leeds to the International Medieval Congress, so I just wondered whether the medievalists, came up with something really new for you.

Julie Bayley: 00:13:53

I did come up to that, that was absolutely fascinating. I was invited to be part of a new, they'd got a new stream, medieval, um, study in action. So the impact leads there, um, had kind of convened this thing. And, um, there's a number of us. So, and I was there as the kind of impact person where obviously other people at Medieval is what a lovely bunch of people is the first thing to say.

I never thought I'd meet a tier two monk. That was amazing. Um, I bought a bracelet, did not buy the penis tapestry. I'm not sure if penis was on your bingo, but There you go. Um, um, but what that reminded me of was every time I do a talk, there is a different need in the room and I, I dunno how many I've done.

It's in, it's certainly into the hundreds, no doubt whatsoever. And I think I worked out, I've, I've worked on, we're getting onto about 700 case studies now, so, you know, we we're in the territory of having see these things. The most common, practical question I get every single time is about evidence and measurement.

Mm-hmm. It is the thing certainly in the UK that people are most concerned about, how do I measure it, how do I measure it fairly, all of those kind of things that I don't think that's a hard question to answer, but it is a very, very common question. Mm-hmm. The hardest question I'll summarise as what counts, um.

The reason it's hard is because the answer is it depends who's asking.

Ged Hall: 00:15:13

Mm-hmm.

Julie Bayley: 00:15:13

So if it's, I, I, you know, one of the ones I talk about all the time is, you know, if a single dementia patient feels safer, that's impact. I do not give A monkey is what, what star rating that is, that's impact with, um, so for that dementia patient patient, that's fact.

Fact. Is it enough for REF? No. Um, and so, and, and the, the extra layer on top of that is often in an institution, especially at the minute with the dire straits many institutions are in. Um, and it's worth saying, um, it's quite common for me to be bought in because they've lost so many staff. They essentially are supplementing it with outsourcing to get someone like me.

And, and, and many, many other people do it, of course. Um. There are these kind of political things like what should my institution be doing to support me? And it's kinda like, well, I can give you a generic answer but I can't answer for your institution. 'cause I don't know the politics, the resources, or anything else.

So I do find I have to balance quite a fine line on answering in an impact health way without suggesting that there is something amiss wrong because that's, oh, I have no idea what this issue is doing and it'd be wrong for me to comment. So I think, I think the. What's hard is more the questions of, you know, what counts, what's reasonable, what's fair, how much pressure should they feel they should be under, et cetera.

That's the hardest.

Ged Hall: 00:16:37

Yeah. Yeah. I mean that, that chimes so much with, uh, with my experiences internally at Leeds, you know, quite regularly I go out and ask, you know, ask the community what do you want? And I know what will be the top of the, the, the top which will be evaluation, you know, and when, no matter where I put it in the randomisation, if I've sent it out as a poll or anything like that.

It'll be evaluation and kind of go, well, we did do a lot on evaluation last year. Yeah. And you kind of go, yes, but I, I'd love some more. And I think it, I think that boils down to almost the feeling of insecurity, doesn't it? It's the, yeah. It's actually the kind of nub of most people's jobs and could, could be kind of, you know, I'm not saying that they'll be sacked or, or, you know, but essentially is the.

The f you know, the failure tipping point, you know, is it, is it success? Is it failure?

Julie Bayley: 00:17:29

It's, it's the equivalent of the output, essentially. Mm-hmm. Because, um, and it's, you mentioned the medieval thing. What was so interesting, there was the rich conversation about engagement. Mm-hmm. The amount of engagement.

Um, and, um, kind of the, the impact part was, uh, not missing at all, but I think there was such a value seen in engagement that it kind of. Tipped a little bit there. So I didn't see that conversation anywhere near as much in that arena for that reason. Um, but ultimately if you can't prove it, you can't claim it.

So, and it's like, if you haven't published it, it didn't exist. It's the same logic. So of course people are worried about it. And you know, the, the, the REF rules are quite by necessity. Um, you're kind of like, whatever you think is the right evidence to put that in rather than you must have X, Y, and Z. But that leads it to the judgment and as soon as it comes down to judgment.

Within a context where our universities are in survival mode, it makes that the, the biggest piece of the puzzle for people to want to get. Right

Ged Hall: 00:18:28

yeah, absolutely. And it, it, you, you kind of hinted at the kind of subjectivity of impact, um, in, in that answer as well. And it, I think that's one also one of the things that a lot of researchers get, get quite challenged by is, um, actually I'm part of this system as well, so what.

What I value matters as well as what others matter. You know, if I'm being equitable, it's, uh, it's not dialing me outta that conversation, but making sure I'm appropriately represented and so is everyone else.

Julie Bayley: 00:19:02

Exactly. I mean, this is, you know, it. The principles in the book are things like, you know about, um, own your expertise, but don't be a jerk because too many people tick.

Believe that. A nice prompt there, Ged. I, I saw the tick. Um, but it's true because people, it's a really tricky balance for people to know how much of an expert to be because, because they was, have incredible expertise as do research managers, professional services, et cetera. But how do you dial that in, in a fair way rather than in a kind of, you know, um.

Parental way, like you, you must mm-hmm. And people really, really struggle with that. And I see imposter syndrome far more than I see the opposite.

Ged Hall: 00:19:40

Yeah.

Julie Bayley: 00:19:40

Question. Um, and you know, if it just remains difficult for people and you know, you, you, you said, you know, it chimed with you, it's 'cause it chime with all of us.

Mm-hmm. Any of us working in this space, not looking in, but working in this space, I think would say, would have exactly the same answers. I, I don't think we'd have. You know, particularly different answers because it's the same pressures we see brought to bear on people.

Ged Hall: 00:20:04

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Um, so I'm a firm believer in the power of questions and, and that kind of hive mind, um, kind of, uh, analogy.

Um, because I think the best ques best answers to those questions come from many minds, not just one. So in terms of over the years when you know your, your time in work, working in impact, who's really, who's been the one that's asked you the best questions, you know, maybe thinking about, you know, the. This is kind of leading into our final question in terms of who's your research impact heroes, but kind of who's really prodded with the kind of like, here's a, here's a thing we need to unpick.

I haven't got the answer, but I have got the question.

Julie Bayley: 00:20:47

It's, I don't think a single person, you know, I, the, the kind of my points of contact are quite varied and they're almost always just. Links made and kept. So people who, typically, people whose values I share. I mean, that's, that's the key thing. I mean, that, that's for, for most of us.

And you said the community of practice is a rich, generous community. It is. It is incredible. So there are swathes of questions in there that, that will have prompted it, but I, I think the two. Places where the mo the richest questions have come from, one is outside of impact, so kind of the, the responsible assessment space.

Ged Hall: 00:21:30

Mm-hmm.

Julie Bayley: 00:21:30

So asking questions there, and it's not because they're asking questions that we haven't thought of, but they're asking them to a world that's listening far more about responsible. And so that's amplified that question. But the, I think the questions to me. Which have been the most, you know, step back and think have been from the patient community, have been from, you know, um, those using public services.

That kind of end, which is essentially why the hell do we care what discipline has made this happen? We just want an answer, you know, how the hell do you think I'm gonna get the bus to this service? Those kind of really, really basic questions I was doing years ago was doing, um, focus groups with, um.

Under sixteens about emergency contraception and you know, there's all always, yeah, we, we believe in, it's all fine, but I haven't got any bus money. And you kind of go, right, okay. Then everything we're doing about, yeah. The fidelity of the service and the is all to nothing. Mm-hmm. And I think the reason I'm, I'm giving that as my answer is because.

That is what reminds us. We have got to plug in to the realities, not just the value of the thing we're doing, but the realities of using it. So, um, yeah, it's definitely outside of academia. Wonderful questions within, but that's where my kind of, you know, stepping back and going, whoa, comes from.

Ged Hall: 00:22:47

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, you need that view from somebody who doesn't. Regularly look at this. I think we do tend to be a bit insular, aren't we? In, in, in academia sometimes that we only talk to our own tribe, whether that's, you know, a geneticist, a, a philosopher who, you know, and we have subdivisions of all of those things.

And, and, uh, we can get, we can get just embedded in that, uh, in that. Maybe 20, 30 people around the world who kind of are also members of that tribe,

Julie Bayley: 00:23:20

I think that needs to be preserved as well. That's the other thing I think, you know, this is how si how science grows. We cannot, should not inject expectations or kind of social engagement for those arenas, which are.

The, the kind of the bit in the lab and, sorry, that's my naive understanding of anything in the lab, the bit in the lab. So I think we need to do that. It's, it's wrapping that in processes, people, relationship building that allow it to go forward. I, I just think, you know, impact, not everything should have impact.

Not everyone should be expected to do impact. That's unreasonable, but we can support that pipeline and that journey and allow those incredibly clever folk across all discipline to do their thing. Just not without. Thinking about the people, et cetera. Bring 'em in as early as possible, the journey.

Ged Hall: 00:24:08

Brilliant. Now, um, you mentioned your job title at Northeastern, so that's got the, uh, the word culture in it. So, um, let's actually pick, pick that apart if I may. So, what areas of that enormous topic are you currently focusing on? And, uh, and what actions are you, are you trying to, trying to put in place to change those areas and who elses involved at Northeastern?

Julie Bayley: 00:24:33

So, I'll start with asking you the question. Do you know anything about Northeastern University of London?

Ged Hall: 00:24:38

Well, well, I do know it is a, would it, would it be right to call it a satellite campus of an American university? Yes.

Julie Bayley: 00:24:46

It's, well, it's, it, it's two things. It's kind of got a dual identity Well done on the homework next.

Um, so, um, yeah, it is, so there's Northeastern in Boston, which is, let's call that the parent. And that has a network of institutions, San Francisco, et cetera, and Northeastern University, London is one of those. It's essentially the European campus for that university. And so, um, you know, students doing a degree through Northeastern can do it across all of these sites.

We have a lot of American students for a year, then they go back and we get another cohort, et cetera. So, um, it has that. But it is also a UK university in its own right. It has this dual identity. Um, so, you know, we, we, we operate certainly in research primarily as a UK institution, European funding, et cetera, et cetera.

Um, but we are new, I think we're the second newest UK university. We're livid. That was someone else recently because we were like, but we are, um, uh. We're, we're, we are relatively new in the research space, I should say Northeastern London. Um, it kind of evolved from was the New College of the Humanities, which was established like 20 11, 20 12, which was by the title suggest of Humanities College.

And through various things that happened before I was there, essentially turned into Northeastern London, which has much more, um, it's a lot of humanities, but also computer science, AI, politics, psychology, all of those things. The reason that's important is because we're going into our first REF. Hmm. So the institution is a, is a, a satellite from a much bigger, more established one.

There's stuff, there's research going on, all of those things. But we are new as a, as a kind of, you know, institution and newly going into REF. So. When you talk about culture, we are starting at a much earlier point than other people. Um, there is, there's a lot of activity going on, so brilliant research, all that.

But we are having to write a code of practice. We're having to work out what our processes are for internal funding, et cetera. I mean, you know, they're there, but the kind of formalisation of them is there. So when we are talking about culture, we are talking. Building that research memory, building that kind of, um, as many else, many other places will have a kind of structure that kind of repeats year on year with training, with development, with mentorship.

All of those things we have, but kind of consolidating them into something is where we are with culture. So that, um, by necessity involves. Anyone involved in research? We have a very small research office. Mm-hmm. Which I'm kind of partly in my role splits in various ways, but my research part is with them, sorry, my impact part with them.

Um, so we are just working together in a quite, let's say, agile, if we're gonna be businessy about it, um, to just build all of that and, and set those things up so it. How nice is it to get into something quite early in its development rather than, should we say, unpick the baggage of elsewhere?

Ged Hall: 00:27:43

Yeah. 'cause I guess, uh, I guess we all had, we all went through REF for the first time.

existing universities, um, in: 2014

But yeah, really interesting to be, to be at the start. Are there any kind of, you know, memories from your time back at Coventry that kind of like, we really mustn't do that, or we, we really must do that?

Julie Bayley: 00:28:26

I think across all of those roles and all the kind of work across the sector, the thing. I want to avoid, I know Northeastern wants to avoid because it is so keen or genuinely keen on social benefit and student benefit and all those things, is that this becomes an act of compliance.

That it, it kind of loses its social responsibility, value and tips into, because we have to for REF. And I think it, we've all seen that in institutions and understandably to a large extent because REF is such a big, you know, 2 billion quid engine. Mm-hmm. Um. So I think that's the biggest thing we're seeking to avoid, that it's compliance only.

Um, and I suppose the, the second, the, the subpart of that is one of the casualties over the years for impact through REF, um, has been the shiny stars of impact. So that, you know, we get these star players, we get, you know, the ones who do, and the, you know, other people are made invisible. Other people who aren't doing it, they don't count.

All of that, we. The challenge we have is we're small. The benefit we have is we're small. Mm. So I think we want to celebrate, recognise all of those things across everyone and avoid the sense of impact for everyone, not you. Mm. Which I've seen elsewhere.

Ged Hall: 00:29:45

Yeah. Thank you for that. Um, yeah, we really love to maybe dive into that in a bit more detail.

You know, maybe, um, maybe after submission day you can kind of, you can kind of go do you know, maybe a reflective piece in terms of what did we get right, what did we not?

Julie Bayley: 00:30:05

Yeah, I, I think I'm always, um, mildly cautious of the kind of immediate, um. Postmortem.

Ged Hall: 00:30:14

Yes.

Julie Bayley: 00:30:14

Um, because I, I think last time I, I remember the results came out and a colleague at another university, which I will not name, messaged me the day after to say our VC has already called us in and told us we need to have our draft case studies ready by the end of the week for the next REF, like what we're putting in.

And then he red penned them. Um, and it's not quite as harsh as elsewhere, but, but you know, yeah. That's a kind of wow moment. Mm-hmm. Um, um. But yeah, it's not as harsh as that everywhere, but I think the postmortem can be overly simplistic. Mm-hmm. And I think, you know, REF, weirdly, REF has um, been a really helpful framework for us.

Mm, because it with, you know, it's, it's certainly not a blank canvas, but just the one, uh, uh, you know, better analogy. Um, REF does give some degree of structure to the kind of things you want in your environment and so on. So it will be interesting to see. I hope that any university doing a postmortem on this really takes account of all the variables, not just the scores.

Um, you know, like loss of staff and all of those kind of things. And maybe I won't say anymore on that point.

Ged Hall: 00:31:22

Excellent. Um, now. We we're coming to kind of the, the end of it. I, I actually might, might try and spread this out a bit more, so I get a bit more joy this morning on the, on this beautiful Friday morning in July.

And warm. Is it? It is. Um, but I've, um, I've started to ask all my guests, uh, to answer this question. Uh, and it's really to kind of generate the long list. Not in a REF sense, 'cause hopefully they will all eventually be interviewed as part of this series. But who are your research impact heroes and why?

And you can give me up to three people, but I'm gonna remove David Phipps from that list.

Julie Bayley: 00:32:04

Well, I'm gonna have to negotiate with you now then, because I want to give you a longer list that bring you round to one person.

Ged Hall: 00:32:10

Oh, okay.

Julie Bayley: 00:32:11

So I will honour your request for a small number, but I want to, for reasons we become clear.

Take a bit of a tour of a few other names if that's okay.

Ged Hall: 00:32:20

That would be fine. Um, yes, that would be fine. So is, is David in the long

Julie Bayley: 00:32:27

well David, so obviously David Phipps, um, is long-term collaborator of mine Research Impact Canada. Just phenomenal. The most generous, decent person you will ever meet. He is just, I, I, you know, I, I love him dearly.

He is wonderful. Um, of course he's on the list, but by your request, I'm not allowed to have David 'cause it would've been the obvious answer

Ged Hall: 00:32:49

and we not put in the bingo thing. What do you usually call him?

Julie Bayley: 00:32:53

Well, no. Yeah, I think I may have called him my impact. Husband. Um,

Ged Hall: 00:32:57

there we go. Tick.

Julie Bayley: 00:32:58

Um, which is, it's entirely possible.

And just in case, you know, because I haven't said them, I would just mention Jessica Fletcher Unicorns and, um, what else do you want? Strip clubs. There you go. On sausages. There you go. You can tick all of those off. Do you know, just as a thing on the medieval conference, so I translated slash AI translated my impact principles into.

Medieval, I dunno what the right word is. And obviously Jessica Fletcher became Cadfael. That's not a surprise. Um, and, um, do not be a jerk. Turned into, well this might been mildly insulting, but it turned into, um, Alan Rickman's, um, sheriff of Nottingham from, um, Robinhood Prince of Thieves. 'cause it was the only cultural reference I had.

Ged Hall: 00:33:40

Okay. Okay. So, uh, apologies for that. So don't be Alan Rickman.

Julie Bayley: 00:33:45

It wa Well, it was Don't be a churl.

[: 00:33:46

Julie Bayley 00:33:47

I believe. Um, but there was also, um, um, unicorns on there as well. But, but yeah, the, um, um. We couldn't find a medieval translation for impact case studies show the sausage, not the sausage factory.

So if anyone's listening and can find a medieval translation of that, I would absolutely welcome it. Just as an aside. Um, so, um, yeah, so no, Dave and I just, we, we work very closely because we just genuinely believe in the same things, which is what, what can we do? That's, it's as simple as that. So I will take him off the list, but only for that reason.

Ged Hall: 00:34:24

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, David, David is, uh, beyond you is, uh, is the person who always makes me laugh the most when he is talking about impact. He's, you know, yeah. I remember the first time I watched his interview from, uh, Tamika Heiden on one of the really early Research Impact Summits, um, that, that she runs 10.

10th anniversary this year. Wow. Yes. So I think it probably was in the first one where he kind of, she asked him what's impact and he went, I don't really want to go into that definitional dystopia.

Julie Bayley: 00:34:55

That sounds about right. Um, and, you know, Tamika's got this conference a bit of a shout out for her impact, her Ignite Conference in Southampton.

Yes. Later in the year in November.

Ged Hall: 00:35:04

I'm really looking forward to that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Julie Bayley: 00:35:07

That should be, that should, should be what will be undoubtedly very, very good. Um, but yeah, I think, um. There's a lot of us in this space. Just all, all of us, not, not just me, David. So many just see how ridiculous a lot of the, the kind of opera daily operations feel like.

So a bit of nonsense is usually the way through. That is probably why I have many kind of sausage and strip club related slides. But um, but yeah, so am I, I just need to seek your consent here. Ged. Am I allowed to give you my longer list and my reasonings.

Ged Hall: 00:35:41

Let's do it in that, um, if we can do it in a kind of speed shooting way, that'd be lovely.

Julie Bayley: 00:35:49

I've, I've thought ahead here I have of, because I realised it was cheeky, but you'll see why. So the reason I'm doing this is because, thank you very much.

Ged Hall: 00:35:56

You can have an impact unicorn.

Julie Bayley: 00:35:59

Thank you. I appreciate that. Um, also, I issued gold stars at a, a REF meeting recently, and that was probably my most professional at the moments, but we enjoyed it.

Um, so the reason I've, I've not struggled to think, but there are so many remarkable people in this arena. And what I wanted to do as a shout out to the kinds of people, so I've got people's names, but that's actually why they are remarkable and what they bring to this arena and, and the thing that characterises the most.

Is that they change the space for others. They have. They're not just about big impact. They're not just about kind of shiny, you know, unicorns, all of that. They are about how do, how did they use the platform they have to make a difference for those coming next or those who need it now? And that I realized when I kind of scribbled down on this, that is what characterises this whole suite of people.

So for example. But look at the, the patient work. And this will also probably be in impact bingo. 'cause I will always talk about Derek Stewart. Mm-hmm. Who is a throat cancer survivor. He is the most wonderful, glorious, kind man you'll ever meet. But he has used his experience of being a patient to bring to bear improvements for patient engagement and.

Just wonderful, wonderful man. If you look at culture and impact loads of people, but professor, um, Ele Belfiore, who's now at Coventry work on impact and culture and really trying to shift away from this simplistic view of how impact works and building culture and goes around and talks about it. And we had her at NU London and so on.

You've got things around responsible KE, and this is obviously a big ticket now. Mm-hmm. You know, the responsible use and then. The, the work there, um, Professor Alis Oancea and Aileen Marshall-Brown at Oxford, longstanding piece of work that it was presented at ARMA on the characteristics of responsible KE and how we should do that.

Let's just do it. Um. Definitely have to give a shout out to Emerald because publishers are stepping into this space. I've probably got a record quite a lot about my views on some of that. Mm. Uh, there is a bit in my book about me taking quite a lot of conference merchandise from a certain organisation I won't mention because they were adamant Impact was citations and, um, I wouldn't agree with them and they wouldn't agree with me.

So I just took a really cool notebook, not gonna lie. Um, but Vicky Williams head, the kind of CEO of of Emerald, um. The global company, the amount of work she particularly has put in to do gender balancing in the company, to do impact, all of that, just opening that platform. Children's literacy, reading groups, um.

Internationally, Esther de Smet, Anabel Sanchez at CREAF in Barcelona, Giovanna Lima, all speak to try to build this internationally. And I know, you know, if not all of those Ged, several of them just drive a driving force internationally. Um, and what a pleasure to be with. Um, and there's probably just two others before I give you the final name, I'm gonna give you.

One of them is, um, Renee, you possibly dunno actually, which is Dr. Kellyn Lee. She is in dementia work, so she is a researcher, you know, PhD, et cetera, and did work on what's called material citizenship. And this is the idea that dementia patients. Essentially need their materials, their objects. So imagine a dementia patient going into a home and being stripped of all of their belongings, the sense of loss, despair, disorientation.

So she goes around doing training on things. She set up with dementia care hub and the reason I mention her is she stepped out of academia 'cause she was so committed to that benefit that she set up another way to do it. Um, and then I can't talk anything about heroes without talking about Lizzie Gadd and the just ongoing drive towards responsible assessment.

So it is a long suite of names and I've got. One last one to give you. The reason I do that is because we don't sit in a vacuum and impact. Mm-hmm. We sit with this whole suite of specialisms, commitments, passions, nerdiness, all of that. And those are just, that's my short list. Mm-hmm. For the kinds of people I work.

But the one I'm gonna direct to, and this probably isn't surprise, is Professor Gemma Derrick. And the reason I'm gonna point you to her, so Gemma is. I think innovating this space particular at the moment. So she is the kind of, the power behind grimpact you when impact is bad. And also part of the, the, the group driving Hidden REF and also it's kind of offshoot projects and she's done that Evaluators Eye looking at REF impact assessment, the whole suite of things.

And she's just trying to get under the bonnet of a lot of stuff. And, um, I, that's my name. I'm gonna give you. Yeah. But I want it to be within that bigger suite of things.

Ged Hall: 00:40:23

Fantastic.

Julie Bayley: 00:40:24

Well, did I get away with it? Ged,

Ged Hall: 00:40:25

you, you got away with it. That was a really interesting, uh, a really interesting list. Uh, and lots of names actually, I didn't know.

So that, uh, that's really expanded my, uh, my view of the world as well. Um, yeah, gem was, uh. I've been lucky to have Gemma on the podcast twice.

Julie Bayley: 00:40:44

Fabulous.

Ged Hall: 00:40:44

So she's talked to, um, she's talked about both those things, you know? Yeah. There's an episode about, uh, grimpact, um, and there's also an episode about Hidden REF.

Um. And, uh, and, and a plug for their new podcast, which, uh, you know, 'What the REF?!', If you are, you know, if you are UK based or if you are really interested in, um, in research assessment, even if you're elsewhere, you know, have a listening to that.

Julie Bayley: 00:41:11

One of the things struck me as I was saying, that list, one of the things that characterised them and if there was ever a kind of, I know this is not, what advice would you give, but if I was ever gonna go advise people, is find the people you feel safe talking to about the mm-hmm.

Not just, I have a stupid question, but like, you know, I have this draft of something I can't, I can't get my head round. Can you have a look at it? Um, I am, you know, my supervisor is being a nightmare. Can I speak to you? That list is full of people who. Make me feel safe and I don't feel, I'm not risk, you know, I'm, I don't feel particularly risky, but do you know what I mean?

There's, there's such a kindness is potent. Those people do that for me and if others are able to find their community that does that, that allows them to fall and pick them up, they've won. Yeah, they have won everything.

Ged Hall: 00:41:59

Yeah, yeah. I mean to you, you reminded me. I, I've just been a guest on the podcast talking about my, uh, the people who picked me up, um, um, when I, I had a recent, um, failure in my career.

Um, and, uh, you know, just the amazing people who put me back together and, uh, and made me, made me the. The Ged that I felt comfortable with again,

so,

Julie Bayley: 00:42:25

but isn't that the most important thing? I mean, with all of this is all the, the impact stuff and the REF and all of that? Yeah, it's the day job. It's what we need to do.

It has importance, but at the end of the day, you need to know that you have, someone's got your back.

Ged Hall: 00:42:39

Absolutely. Absolutely. Just, um, just while before we stop talking about Gemma, with you both having that kind of, um, you both mentioned a failed musical career. Maybe, you know, maybe as you, you know, there's a, there's a, I dunno, an impact unicorns band that could be, could be hived off or see.

Julie Bayley: 00:43:04

So David Phipps is also a flutist.

Ged Hall: 00:43:05

Yes, absolutely.

Julie Bayley: 00:43:07

Um, um, there's a number of people in this space, old musicians, but I, I'm one of those people, you know, when they say at a conference, oh, there'll be a choir. Or there'll be some kind of other enforced fun. I'm going, no, thank you. Um, and it's not because, it's not that, it's just not for me.

I just think those, I, I just have, I get very Britishly awkward about enforced fun. That's the only way I can describe it.

Ged Hall: 00:43:29

Well, I'll tell, I'll tell you what, we've, um, we've constantly been challenged about why so. Our intro and outro on these episodes is done by a mate of mine called Pierro Vitelli, who is also in a researcher development space, but as a freelancer, and I've known him for years, and, um, our co-host, Tony Bromley played the guitar that.

Um, so Tony actually wrote a song, and it's the podcast song also available on the, on the podcast if you, you know, if you want a light episode, um, and, uh, you know, maybe, maybe you and Gemma could do the voiceover and, you know, with your double bass know, or could we,

Julie Bayley: 00:44:09

I can't tell you how little chances there is of that, Ged.

Ged Hall: 00:44:11

Okay.

Julie Bayley: 00:44:11

I mean, just even hearing it is making, like I'm coming up in hikes. It's, it's just like there are, there are actual professionals. Who, who do that and, and quite rightly should do that. Um, I mean, I could probably play the baseline of Oklahoma still, but, you know, but beyond that, I just, ah, I dunno. It's, it's, it's a joy to have as a hobby.

I realise it was not supposed to be my career when I, you know, ditched it. Um, I love that pe I love that people are creative in this space. It's just not me. We had, just as a, as a quick example of that, we had a thing at previous university, I won't tell you which one, but a while ago, um, they had an away day and halfway through they went right.

Gonna go and take photos, go around the, the hotel complex, take photos that, you know, really point us in the direction of what we could have as our research future. Mean really creative. I don't do well in those things. My photos were a bin, a no entry sign, and then a cloud because I'd accidentally let my phone camera go off.

And then I had to find a reason why these were, you know, like we could bin old ideas, but it's like some people are incredible at that. Yeah. My God. Thank you. For those of you who are, I, I'm quietly craft at home or quietly do my little cross stitching at home happy days. But, but please don't ask me to do anything more creative unless it's showing picture of unicorns and, and so on.

That fine with

Ged Hall: 00:45:30

Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I'm totally with you on that one. I mean, I'm, uh, even though, um, I'm part of the. I guess part of the community that, uh, that asks people to do those creative things in, in away, days and stuff like that. If I was writing it, I would probably never, because I know I hate those moments and kind of go, oh, I've just gotta wander around for 20 minutes and take a photograph of something.

Julie Bayley: 00:45:56

Also, I mean, probably won't, people won't believe it, but I'm a card carrying introvert. I am such, I, you know, need to be away from all that. The idea of suddenly being kind of centre of attention, doing some kind of crafting or singing is my idea of actual hell. Um, so, um, uh, so I mean, thank you Ged. Great idea.

Lovely.

Ged Hall: 00:46:16

We, we have so much in common. I'm actually introvert. You kind of think, why are you doing a podcast as a host? You fool.

Julie Bayley: 00:46:23

We all, we all do what we, we need to. I think we just have our thresholds and let, and let the people who are good at it do it.

Ged Hall: 00:46:28

Yeah, absolutely, Julie. It's been a huge amount of fun.

Um, I think we did get, I think most people will have shouted house on the Bayley Impact Bingo. Now I, I kind of had to force it, so, you know,

Julie Bayley: 00:46:41

I'm just not a one trick pony, Ged. I mean, I know I've come across that way, but, um, um, uh, it's, it's, it's imprint. I don't need to just keep saying it, but, um, hey, they, they seem useful ideas for people and that'll do me.

Ged Hall: 00:46:55

And I'll, uh, I'll put that joke about the Bingo away for, for a while.

Julie Bayley: 00:47:00

It's, it's fine. I am, I'm, oh, I'm, I'm very comfortable in my, uh, repeated messages. Don't worry.

Ged Hall: 00:47:06

Well, I think, I think that way of talking about impact makes it so accessible. And actually, you know, no matter how many times I hear you use those metaphors, it's always thought provoking for me. 'cause it always, it always drives me down to another level. To think about it. So I think it, you know, it is worth repeating those messages, not just to those who haven't heard them before.

Julie Bayley: 00:47:29

I say for the one person they're in that hasn't, if it lands with them, I've done my job. Yeah, yeah. To be honest, that's how it works.

But no, no, it's been lovely to speak to Ged. Lovely to have, I mean, we, we chat anyway, but this is, uh, yeah, it's been fun. Thank you.

Ged Hall: 00:47:41

You are welcome. So thank you for agreeing to be on the podcast, and I'll leave you to say goodbye to all the listeners.

Julie Bayley: 00:47:48

I will say goodbye. I will say, uh, thank you Ged, uh, and a continued thanks to anyone who's working in that space to make a difference.

It's often invisible, but my God, it's important. So just carry on.

Intro: 00:48:02

Thanks for listening to the Research Culture Uncovered podcast. Please subscribe so you never miss out on our brand new episodes. And if you're enjoying the discussions, give us some love by dropping a five star rating and written review as it helps.

Other research culturalists, find us and please share with a friend and show them how to subscribe. Thanks for listening, and here's to you and your research culture.