(S4E6) From Research to Consulting: Inspiration, Strategies and Tips from Dr Simon McNair

Introduction [: 00:00:08

Welcome to the Research Culture Uncovered podcast, where in every episode we explore what is research culture and what should it be. You'll hear thoughts and opinions from a range of contributors to help you change research culture into what you want it to be.

Ruth Winden [: 00:00:30

University of Leeds ended in: 2019

Simon McNair [: 00:02:21

That's right, yeah. My PhD is in cognitive psychology, and from there I was really interested in just kind of being a kind of consumer psychologist because I felt like that was something we do every day. We all make consumer decisions. So as a psychologist, that was some of the most interesting decision making to try and understand was in that domain.

Ruth Winden [: 00:02:38

Yeah, I'll tell you a little story. You know, I'm German. I came to the UK, had my first proper job. Christmas came and went. And in mid January, I was talking to my colleagues saying, when is our Christmas payment coming? And they looked at me, Christmas payment? What are you talking about? In Germany, we always get a 13th salary because obviously Christmas, December is so expensive. So you then can pay for everything in January. And you should have seen my face when they said to me, this doesn't exist in the UK. And I really learned my lesson from that. Never make any assumptions.

Simon McNair [: 00:03:15

That sounds like the kind of thing that would help a lot of people, but, yeah, not a thing we get in the UK at all.

Ruth Winden [: 00:03:22

So I thought I'll share that story because it's still with me. And when I saw, you know, your recent research interest, also the consulting firm you work at now. But before we go there, when I met you four years ago, you were, let's put it yeah, let's be honest, you were an academic high flyer. I mean, you got your Leverhulme early career research fellowship. You had an early Career Research Impact Award. You got lots of funding, Higher Education Innovation Funding. I mean, you were really at the top of it, weren't you? So very obvious question to ask is what made you change your mind and leave an academic career behind?

Simon McNair [: 00:04:05

It's such a good question. Yeah, you're right. Thank you for that. I appreciate you kind of running through some of those accolades. I realised that I was at a juncture in my life where I was coming to the end of a really good postdoc, that I had really enjoyed working with debt advisors in and around Leeds. And I knew that I had to make this decision. I was at the end of this postdoc, and the next step was obviously to take on a lectureship. And I asked myself some really deep questions at that point. Does being an academic and all of that entails? So lots of teaching, lots of marking coursework, lots of marking exams, lots of publishing peer reviewed journal articles. Do I get the gratification that I need out of those to really want to commit myself to doing this as a full career? And I had reservations. The answer to those questions for me were just not all yes. I, quite frankly, had struggled quite a lot over my academic career to publish journal articles. It's not that I didn't achieve them. I have achieved them, and I still am achieving that. But, I didn't get a lot of gratification out of the processes of a model. It just felt like the amount of effort and time and sweat and tears that I would put into publishing, trying to publish a journal article, for instance, just never was met with the same level of satisfaction whenever that would actually be published. So that email that you would get saying, we're going to publish your journal article, I never, ever felt anything other than relief whenever I got those emails. It wasn't pride, but there was never happiness. It was always like, I don't have to continue with that process onto the next one. So those are pretty hard obstacles to overcome, I think. So that had reservations right away for me in terms of, okay, well, do I want to commit myself fully to that as a careers? The other thing that changed my mind was really that last postdoc that I did where I was out in the field, I was out with debt advisors. I was working really closely with them, and I could see how quickly they were picking up from the research that we were doing things that the ways that they could change how they're delivering their services, how they can improve things for their clients and for their customers. And that made my heart sing, being that kind of researcher where you're working closely with in a very applied setting, where there isn't all of the kind of hamstrings that there might be of just being a researcher in the university, so to speak. Seeing that quick turnaround, seeing those quick impacts, seeing those ways that you can help improve people's kind of services or products, that really sung to me as well. So that was the other thing that kind of pulled me away from the academic side of things because obviously as an academic, publishing the peer reviewed papers is like the key thing. You got to do that first and then everything else comes after it. I kind of wanted it to be the other way around. I wanted to see the impact and help deliver things to kind of customers and to clients and to their customers and clients, a little bit more kind of quickly. So that kind of then led me to the point where, okay, I have to be courageous now and I have to sort of be brave and go, okay, I'm going to take myself out of this track. It might be a sideways step, it might be a step backwards for the first while, all I'd known up until that point was being an academic. So I was quite inexperienced in a lot of respects. But it was at that point that I said, okay, let's start looking for what else could I do? Where else could I go and be the researcher that I am, but just not in the university?

Ruth Winden [: 00:07:22

But the great thing was, I remember you were working with Citizens Advice Bureau, weren't you? You got so much practical experience. I'm sure that would have helped you. Also then explain what you could do for a consulting firm, psychology firm, after all, because I remember you were really clear, I'm leaving, and you knew exactly where you wanted to go. And I was so impressed with that because you did something that I always recommend but not many people follow, is build that target list, look at the employer where you want to be and then see how you can network your way in. And you did exactly that. And you were really risky because you didn't have a list of 20. You had created a short list, didn't you? If I remember correctly, I think there was one top choice, wasn't there, for you?

Simon McNair [: 00:08:07

Yeah, there was two or three on the list, but one top choice. You're absolutely right. I think you made a good point. That project where I was working as a postdoc was Citizen Advice. I didn't realize it at the time, but yeah, that was helping me to sort of gain valuable consultant experience, which would then help me no end in the line of work that I'm in now, where I work for a consultancy, for instance. So I hadn't realised it, but I guess that was the initiation of me realising that that's exactly the kind of role that I wanted to fulfill, I suppose. On the sort of the target list of, okay, where do I go if I'm not going to be an academic? Where do I go and work for? I leaned very heavily on what my experience up to that point was, which was, psychologist who was understanding people's financial decision making. You listed some of the topics that I was interested in there. So there's everyday kind of consumer decisions, everyday financial decisions. So that led me quite naturally to kind of ask, okay, well, what kinds of organisations in the UK might value that kind of experience, but which will still allow me to be a researcher, but which I'm not going to be shackled by having to publish peer reviewed papers and things like that. I think I was quite fortunate in the sense that the one that was at the top of my list I already had known about because it was directly relevant to my expertise as a psychologist. So this is the Behavioral Insights team here in London, a public policy institute. Very research, quite academic, very research oriented, very research oriented, quite academic as well. But which had a new team that had just been set up recently at that point, which was all to do with financial decision making. So that was almost like the stars had kind of aligned. That to me just seemed like, that's the perfect place for me to go and work. And so, I very much, you will notice that I absolutely set my sights on those. It was almost like, that's where I'm going to go. I'm going to find out how I can get there one way or the other, and I'm going to go. I had some backups, but not very many. I did put a lot of my eggs in that one big kind of behavioural size basket. And lo and behold, again, I think a bit of fortune roles opened up at a time whenever I was looking for them. Not exactly the roles I was looking for, admittedly, but nonetheless I kind of said to myself, well, if I can even just get there, then we'll figure the rest out. And I got there, fortunately enough.

Ruth Winden [: 00:10:19

Yeah, it was such a success story. But it was very clear to me when I worked with you, you're very good at positioning yourself, writing about your experience. I still remember that LinkedIn profile that you wrote. I have a good memory for these things and the CV and the cover letter. You were very strong at translating your experience into something that really adds value. And I was overjoyed: one application, one interview, one job offer. That's the kind of stuff I like working with. And then you joined them and tell me more about how different was it? You said it was also very research intensive, almost like academia. Was that a good sort of transition into the world of consulting?

Simon McNair [: 00:10:59

ving moved out of academia in: 2019

Ruth Winden [: 00:13:15

It's a different way of working, isn't it? And you are not on your own. Your team contribution and being aware of different styles and different agendas and politics also come into it. All the good stuff at work, right? Yeah, but you got through it. You got through it and did rather well because before we came on air, I was teasing you a little bit because, my word, how many promotions can you get? Oh, I know. I mean, especially in academia where these things take a long time to get a promotion. You did it twice each time. I think it took you nine months, nine months or something. I read this from your LinkedIn profile. So you stayed, you settled in, you did your work and then you changed again. So in four years, two employers, what's the difference between now and when you came out of academia?

Simon McNair [: 00:14:12

d Cowry Consulting in January: 2022

Ruth Winden [: 00:16:34

Yeah, fantastic. And as I'm listening to you, obviously we live in very difficult financial circumstances and money is on everyone's mind. I mean, do you get the chance also to work on these topical issues? Cost of living standards and all these things or mortgages have just gone up again. A lot of people are struggling, there's a lot about debt management. We're in such a dire strait in this country and in many other countries as well. Is this something that you get to work on as well? Or what kind of projects, without obviously breaking confidentiality with your clients, but is there something you can say about the kind of problems that you are working on?

Simon McNair [: 00:17:14

Yeah, absolutely. So, thankfully, I do still get to, I spend most of my time I would say most of the projects that I'm waiting at the minute are still in the realm of kind of financial decision making and particularly how we can help banks to sort of better support their vulnerable customers and better support their customers who might be in debt, for instance. So one of the key projects I'm leading at the minute is with a major bank and it's to do with the kinds of conversations the bank can have with people, whenever they might be struggling to sort of meet their bills. So it's very much at the level of how do we support those customers, how do we help find a solution for them, that is kind of as easy as it can be for them and how do we manage those kinds of conversations and those interactions in a way that's sensitive? Because it's a very fraught level of conversation. So, yeah, I would say I'm still drawing on that experience of being like an academic kind of financial psychologist from like ten years ago. A lot of the stuff I did then is still being put into practice here as well, but it's now being kind of manifest in a much more kind of tangible way. So rather than thinking about it at sort of the theoretical level. It's like, okay, well, how can we help improve the conversation that call handlers are having with people who might be in debt? How do we make sure those conversations are carried out sensitively? How do we make sure those conversations are delivered in a way that really helps the customer to sort of make the next decision for themselves and achieve the best outcome for them? So, yeah, there's definitely still a narrative thread I can draw from all the things I was doing and all the things I did at Behavioural Insights Team to what I'm doing now.

Ruth Winden [: 00:18:40

That must be really rewarding. I mean, I watched a program the other day where the Samaritans were working with banking employees because they're finding that people have to deal now with a lot more stressful conversations that are really difficult to handle and that are leaving an emotional impact on people. Because it must be terrifying and so upsetting when you have people in absolute financial distress on the phone and say, I just can't pay the bill, pay the mortgage, losing the house. That puts obviously a lot of pressure on the employees. Do you get involved on that side as well, or is it more, oh, wow, interesting?

Simon McNair [: 00:19:16

Absolutely. So that this is something that we're involved in, both sides of that conversation. So not only how do we make it as emotionally kind of facilitative as you can for customers, but also how do we monitor the kinds of impacts that this might be having on the call handlers, the people who have to have these conversations? How can we employ behavioural science, which is what I do, to sort of manage the employee experience as well and manage employee well being? Because you're right, there's been such an uptick in that as being a problem. We have lots of companies, banks and otherwise, that come to us now and say, we're noticing higher levels of burnout in our employees because it's just become an emotionally much more difficult job for them throughout the sort of economic situation that we're in, in the cost of living crisis. So, yeah, that's something we've turned our attention to as well. How can we manage this as fast as we can? How can we make this manageable for employees as well?

Ruth Winden [: 00:20:06

Yeah, it must be so rewarding because you are making a big impact with your expertise. And golly, I'm not asking what the future holds. I mean, I have no doubt you will go far, but I just wondered. Simon, you've obviously gone through that transition. And when I work with postdocs at the moment at Leeds, like you, we have a lot of talented people, lots of options, but often a real reticence to try something else or make that jump. And I totally understand, it is challenging. That's why I love having people from Career Architect on the podcast, because you've all done it and you've done it so beautifully and so well. Have you got any tips, Simon, for people who are in your shoes where you were four years ago and are maybe hesitating and think, hmmh, can I really do this? Can I cope with a different environment? Because that's often the big concern. Can I actually operate well in a different environment? And you were very open about the challenge you had in adapting to working in a commercial setting.

Simon McNair [: 00:21:11

Yeah, I would say one of the main things that the Career Architect course and what you helped me with Ruth, really was really understanding that although you think of yourself as an academic at that point, and that's the path that you've been treading, you're so much more than that, really, honestly. And your expertise as somebody who can deliver very kind of detailed insights and research is valuable to most, if not all, companies, really. In all honesty. Lots of companies don't have people who come from PhD level or even a Master's level backgrounds. So if you're at that level, you by default have an awful lot that you can offer to many different companies. So I would say I think that's the first key barrier to overcome. If you find yourself in that situation and you're sort of thinking to yourself, I'm not sure if I want to continue down this academic career path. The first thing to figure out is, okay, if I was to distill who I think I am as an academic in terms of what my interest is, into, say, one or two key topics, what would they be? On the surface, this sounds like a little bit reductive, but that was what I did to begin with. And I told myself, I'm a financial psychologist, and I'm a consumer decision making psychologist. Okay. And so from that, then I was able to start to look at, okay, well, what other organisations are there out there that kind of I could put into those boxes? And then from that, I was able to then kind of whittle it down further and further. So I would say the first thing to do is, just get try and kind of put yourself into sort of one to two boxes. And then from that, that will help orient where you can then look for other organisations that might be relevant to that kind of interest. From there, reach out to people at those organisations. Don't be scared. Honestly, I think that's a big thing that also holds people back, is like, go and look at who works for the companies. Reach out to them. Just send them a note and say, hey, look, here's who I am. Here's what I do. Could we have a quick conversation? I'd really love to know about what it's like where you work and how I might become involved. You might be surprised. What happened to me with Behavioral Insights Team, is actually, I reached out to somebody there, and I brought them to Leeds. So I was able to bring them to Leeds to deliver a seminar and then I'm still friends with that person. And that was a large part of the reason that helped convince me that I could possibly go and work at that organisation. So, yeah, don't be afraid to reach out., I think as well.

Ruth Winden [: 00:23:28

That's a really good tip. Because I always say to people, you might be the solution that everyone has been looking for, because that might be hard to believe, but I'm absolutely convinced and I've seen it hundreds of times over the years. As a PhD or postdoc, you offer so much, it's your expertise, but it's also the analytical thinking, the problem solving, the communication, there's so many things and also you're all learners and we need people who learn because the world is changing. I'm not going down the route and asking you about AI and what you do. That could be an hour long conversation easily. But the world is not standing still and we need people who can adapt and who can think and who can come up with solutions. And if anyone is destined for that, it really is researchers because that's been their training all throughout their careers, hasn't it?

Simon McNair [: 00:24:16

Yeah, and also, I think to really relay off that point as well, look, organisations, companies, are made up of such a mixture of different people and I think recruiters and people who recruit for companies are savvy to this as well. And more often than not, nobody wants a company where it's just all the one kind of person, that's not going to work, right? So at Cowry, where I work, for instance, we really genuinely do have a diverse range of people with different kinds of mindsets and abilities. And the point is that finding the right mixture of people. So in my team, for instance, I might be one of the slightly more detail oriented kind of research focused people, but then we've got other people in the team who are much more design oriented and much more kind of creative oriented. So bringing that kind of melange of people together then makes for overall more productive teams, I would say. So that's another thing to bear in mind. You might be thinking of yourself as being, oh, I'm not sure I would necessarily fit in that company. If it's a company that is aligned with what you do, and you're good and you can demonstrate that, then they will find out how to make it work for you, is what I would say.

Ruth Winden [: 00:25:18

Absolutely. And we've had several cases where people went in for interview and then through the conversations it emerged that actually there might be a different role, much better for them. And they discuss that there because I think organisations need talent. We've got such a labour market shortage and who wants to turn down highly intelligent, talented and engaged people? Simon, it's such a pleasure. And in between, when we worked together last and now, I have been to Belfast and and I must say I loved it. I will be back. So there you go. Simon, thank you so much for your time. It's been such a pleasure and I'm so glad we're still connected on LinkedIn because I just see your meteoric rise into the future, so I'm keeping my eyes on you. Thank you so much. All the very best and again, it's been so lovely to catch up with you and all the best, Simon.

Simon McNair [: 00:26:17

Likewise. Thank you so much.

Introduction [: 00:26:20

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