(Episode 130): Postdocs Leading Research Culture Change at the University of Leeds - what have we learnt?

Introduction [: 00:00:04

Welcome to the Research Culture Uncovered podcast, where in every episode we explore what is Research culture and what should it be. You'll hear thoughts and opinions from a range of contributors to help you change Research Culture into what you want it to be.

Ruth Winden [: 00:00:25

Welcome to this episode, which is about a successful career development initiative led by postdocs at the University of Leeds. We actually recorded an episode about this project at its very beginning back in September 2024. It is season nine, episode three, called Postdocs as Innovators - Shaping Research Culture at the University of Leeds. And all I can say is, wow. The postdocs did make a huge impact with their idea. I will put the link to the earlier recording into the show notes if you're interested in the before and after analysis. So let's see how this project developed, whether it achieved what we set out to achieve and what we have learned, so you can decide whether this postdoc led approach is for you as well. So who have we got on today's podcast? There is me, Ruth Winden, the Careers with Research Consultant with our three postdocs, Jessica Swanson, Laurin McDowall and James Warren.

Ruth Winden [: 00:01:27

They are the formidable leaders of this project and the main drivers behind our collaboration. And yes, it was a collaboration with three postdocs and four professional services staff. Taryn Bell and myself from the Researcher Development and Research Culture team for our expertise in careers and Nazia Nasir and Anisha O'Hagan for their expertise and networks from the Research and Innovation Service. To make it clear, unusually, we as professional services staff were in a support role and it was the postdocs taking the lead. So let's dive deeper and welcome. James, Laurin and Jessica, welcome. Lovely to have you with us.

Jessica Swanson [: 00:02:13

Thank you.

Ruth Winden [: 00:02:14

Ruth.

Laurin McDowall [: 00:02:14

Hi.

Ruth Winden [: 00:02:15

Thank you.

Ruth Winden [: 00:02:16

Thank you.

Ruth Winden [: 00:02:16

Yeah. So they've taken time out their busy schedules and they're looking forward to the recording with me because we have learned so much through the process, haven't we? And I thought it would be good to go back, you know, what was the initial idea? Why don't we start at the beginning, James? What was that original idea for the project?

James Warren [: 00:02:37

The initial idea was to try and establish a way to support Early Career Researchers in their career development. So look at ways they can have constructive conversations with their line managers, but also create a resource where it allowed them to find all the information. Universities, especially Leeds, are great for giving you huge amounts of information, but it's always in stepwise places, it's never in one place. And that makes it really hard for Early Career Researchers to be able to just get on with the job, but also look ahead. So that was where our early career research hub idea came from, but we also wanted to support that a lot of the Early Career Researchers struggle to get professional recognition and we wanted to look at things like chartership to try and make the transition from academia to industry more seamless, but also look at opportunities of professional qualifications like Prince2 Project Management, where Early Career Researchers do a lot of this day to day, but we don't get the formal recognition for it. So the project was looking at a way to put a whole package together, to put all these aspects where ECRs are sometimes lacking with the support in terms of directed support, not from people helping, actually a resource to be able to go to. So that was the whole initial premise of trying to ultimately support Early Career Researchers to make more informed choices of their career.

Ruth Winden [: 00:04:17

Absolutely. And we should say, you know, you are all based in the Faculty of Biological Sciences (FBS), you are a big faculty. There's lots going on, lots of support also across the university. And I recognize it's really hard whether you are new to the university or whether you've been here for a few years really to see and take in all that's on offer. And so that was a real driver, wasn't it, behind the project. How can we make it easy and simple and bring all that information together into a hub, a careers hub? And then also, you know, the project management and the chartership and that was really the big, the big thinking and the, the innovative thing for me was also that you said we're leading it and people at you, Ruth, you know, you're supporting us, but we're in the lead and we love that. And we must say we got really generous funding from Research England, didn't we?

Jessica Swanson [: 00:05:10

Yeah.

Ruth Winden [: 00:05:10

Who, who wants to come in on that? Because I know that was a team effort and that, you know, bid writing is one of these things we all need to be good at. And it was, was a team effort. Who wants to come in on that and say a little bit about the process there?

Jessica Swanson [: 00:05:25

I guess I can. We, we answered the Enhancing Research Culture open call and it was a collaborative process to write the grant and we all contributed different sort of elements to it. And we wrote a very clear plan. We had the two main targets, one to develop the Early Career Researcher hub and the second to put on the events that we had planned.

Ruth Winden [: 00:05:52

Absolutely. And it was a joy, wasn't it? Because we all chipped in. I mean, I know you led, you know, but you know, lots of people in our collaboration commented and you got the money, which was brilliant and so well deserved because it's such an innovative and much needed project. And so what did we then deliver? And I'm looking at Laurin for this part. What did we do? We did a lot, didn't we? It was only nine months, but blimey, that was an intensive time, wasn't it?

Laurin McDowall [: 00:06:21

Yeah, it was, to be honest, but really happy to say that we managed everything that we said we were going to do. So we created the Hub and brought together lots of different resources and links from the university in order to make it much more easy and accessible for Early Career Researchers to access this information. We also sought out feedback from postdocs in the Faculty of Biological Sciences to have a look at the Hub and make suggestions and see if it worked well for them. So that was a real positive. And as James and Jess had mentioned, we also had these events aimed to support career development. So the first one was a chartership information session and we were able to bring together three professional membership bodies, so Royal Society of Biology, Royal Society of Chemistry and IOM3 to come in and talk to ECRs about the process that each of them have in order to gain chartership. So that went really well. We were also aiming to support Early Career Researchers that want to stay in academia.

Laurin McDowall [: 00:07:51

So for that we put on a fellowship fair across the day and Taryn led on that and was absolutely brilliant. We had a panel discussion where we had people that gained fellowships. We had information about the different fellowships on offer and also about like narrative CVs, and we got really good attendance for the fellowship fair and really good feedback on that. And then, as they've also mentioned, we also put a cohort, or are putting a cohort, because I think a lot of people are still working on it. Through the Prince2 Project Management course, we had 35 postdocs sign up for it, which is really quite a substantial number, and I think a few have passed already and like I said, a lot of others still working on it. So that was really good. And then just finally we had a little bit of time and we had a little bit of resources, shall we say, left over at the end. So we reached out to Vox Coaching and they came in and delivered a couple of sessions on challenging conversations and managing research relationships, which was a nice little bonus at the end as well.

Laurin McDowall [: 00:09:16

So, yeah, overall I think we achieved everything that we set out to do. So, yeah, really good.

Ruth Winden [: 00:09:24

And you did. And. And more than we expected in many ways. And can I just make a comment here? You know, when you Say, yeah, you know, we just set up this, this careers hub. It sounds so simple, but we all know university systems are complex and it took a lot of negotiation and persuasion and sharing information, didn't it, you know, to work with IT and because it's not like anyone can come along and just start a hub on our system. So I was really in awe. You know, you pulled in your personal connections and had lots of conversations internally. And then what I also thought was wonderful was, you know, how clearly and closely you worked with your community.

Ruth Winden [: 00:10:05

You have a really strong community of fellow ECRs, and you invited them in, you said, this is what we have in mind. What do you need? What do you think? You know, there was this constant engagement with your community and I think that also made sure that you had so many people come to the events. I mean, as a project manager, by background, I was over the moon to, to see 35 people, you know, who are, who are very busy, you know, and who project manage all the time as part of their jobs, but don't have a formal qualification. They've, they're, you know, they came forward and they're working on it. Some of you are already through. And Jess, congratulations. I know you got through as well. Brilliant.

Ruth Winden [: 00:10:42

And from a careers perspective, this was really important to me to that is part of the offer, because project management is a growing career in academia and beyond. And when you see opportunities at, you know, in the higher education sector, very often these days there is a certification of Prince2, or Agile, or any other of the methodologies that you need. And our postdocs don't automatically get that certification. So for me, it was a real enabler to say to people, if that's what you're interested in, do it, because here's an opportunity, it will benefit the university because you'll become a better project management, project manager. But also, you know, it is an opportunity go into sideways careers as a project manager in research or go, you know, into different sectors and do that. So if this all sounds so easy as, as the postdocs make it sound, can I just assure you it is not that easy at all, is it? You know, it's lots of, you know, being on the ball, lots of organization, you all did lots of convincing, lots of negotiating, lots of bringing people together and I mean, I've been in awe. I mean, it's worked absolutely beautifully.

Ruth Winden [: 00:11:49

And can, Jess, would you like to explain a bit? Because I know, you know, the figures and the numbers and everything. Do you want to tell us a little bit more about, you know, what was the outcome? So we have an idea now of what you tried. You know, what the aim was, what you set out to do, all the wonderful things that you did with your community and bringing external suppliers in as well and bringing the community together. And so what was the outcome?

Jessica Swanson [: 00:12:15

Yeah, so as Laurin said, we held several events and we had really good attendance at all of them, which was such an achievement. And we collected feedback at these and they all scored more than three out of four in their usefulness. And any comments we got were, I think on the whole very positive that what we were providing was really beneficial. We've had really good engagement with the professional bodies that came to talk to us. And then the Fellowship fair had incredibly good feedback. I guess it's not something that is already offered at Leeds. And I think just being able to get members of RIS (Research & Innovation Service) members OD&PL (Organisational Development & Professional Learning) in one room and have fellowships explained in a way that's accessible to ECRs, so everyone knew where they were just was really, really valuable and I think was really well done. Like the feedback was fantastic.

Jessica Swanson [: 00:13:15

Prince2 - we've had, as Laurin mentioned, really good uptake. I think we're at about nine or 10 people who passed so far, but they still got, I think six months left to keep going. So I know people are still working through it. It was an online self-taught course. So, you know, people can go at their own pace. So we can accommodate as many people as possible. So yeah, it's looking like it's been a really great outcome, to be honest.

Ruth Winden [: 00:13:42

Yeah. And one thing I'm very aware of, and I know you won't mention unless I mention it, and that is you won an award. Come on, tell us more about the award you won because you made big waves at the university. And we also need to talk about the support you got in FBS from senior leadership, I think because Karen has been absolutely wonderful and so keen and really helpful. So tell us more about these things. You know the award that you won in recognition of your hard work - and you can't go quiet on me now!

Jessica Swanson [: 00:14:13

Yeah. So we did have really great support from senior management in our faculty. The Executive Dean came along to our launch event which was really great and just showed us that it was important to them as well. And we got nominated for an FBS Partnership Award in the category of culture, which is great. And the three of us won that as a group at the awards earlier this year. So that was lovely. It's really nice to be recognized.

Ruth Winden [: 00:14:38

Absolutely. You know, because it is unusual and you made such an impact. And I was really just, you know that your community really appreciated all that hard work that you did on on top of your day jobs. And so what, what is, what is the bigger outcome for the university? And I wonder, James, whether you want to talk to us about that because I know you had conversations with Cath Noakes, who is a senior academic here at the university, who has always been so supportive of ECRs in their careers. So you've made waves and there are some bigger outcomes beyond your community. James, do you want to tell us a little bit more about that?

James Warren [: 00:15:19

Yeah. So it has definitely snowballed into something far bigger than what it was intended. But I think that goes back to highlighting that this is an area that is needed to be supported and people identified that we have a potential way to do that. So we've taken the whole idea was to initially start with FBS and FMH, the Faculty of Biological Sciences and the Faculty of Medicine and Health, because they're quite closely aligned but we have quite a good network and connection with the ECRs across these. But that's built to looking at other faculties. Other faculties are now looking at what we've done within this project, but also how the Postdoc association and that network within FBS is actually structured. They're seeing how successful this can be. So the other faculty, the one that Cath Noakes is in, is Engineering & Physical Sciences and they're looking at how to - can they adopt anything and they want to expand our early career researcher hub and build into that and actually use that as part of the rollout to support their own ECRs.

James Warren [: 00:16:32

It's also been parallel where we've been doing Prince2 as part of this project. The School of Mechanical Engineering have also been looking at ways to support ECRs with Prince2 and this project kind of co aligned with that, showing that not only did we support 35 ECRs, they also supported 15 at the same time. So it built in nicely that there were concurrent support for Prince2 project management during this project because we helped support the establishment of that as part of this project. But we've also been noticed by senior management outside of these faculties. It's an initiative that's now being presented to central University as a more centralised initiative that supports all faculties rather than just select ones. Which I can only say is the huge positive of the success has been noticed not from just our own ECRs but also from senior management that they're seeing how useful and how versatile this is as an initiative and also within our research culture drive at The University of Leeds. It's highlighting that when Early Career Researchers are given the appropriate support, we can deliver quite well. We can deliver big projects that have huge impact and far reaching impact.

James Warren [: 00:17:50

Because I know that not just the University of Leeds, but other universities, such as through the White Rose Consortium, are watching and are aware of what we're doing and seeing how similar initiatives or things can be supported at other institutions. So to anyone listening, watch this space is all I can say.

Ruth Winden [: 00:18:11

I know James always has big ambitions, which is wonderful. And you know, I'm, I'm so, I mean, proud is the wrong word. I mean, I'm proud actually. But it's down to you guys, what you've done. Because I kept joking, didn't I? That I felt, you know, sometimes a little bit, I'm not doing enough, I'm not doing enough, you know, do you need my help? And you didn't need my help. I mean, I know I supported a little bit, but you know, you, you really, you really took the lead and it was a very, very nice experience for me because I know you well, I totally trust you. I knew, I knew you'd deliver and you, boy, did you deliver, you know, and so that is, I think it's a really joyful collaboration. And what I have learned is, you know, I've known you all for quite a while, we've worked together before and when you develop those relationships and that trust and we all know what we could deliver and how we could support each other through the process, you know, I think it's just such a great example of, you know, what starts with one small idea and now look at, you know, look at what's developing from it and how far it can go.

Ruth Winden [: 00:19:13

And it could really go all across the university and I'm so delighted, you know, that that's been recognized. So what have you learned about the process? When you look back, what a year it's been. We started with that bid, what was it? May? June. Then you got, you got it through, which was a big celebration. And then we started in September pretty rapidly because suddenly, okay, here is the project, here is the money, off you go. And now it is September, one year later, but we finished at the end of July. So, you know, the turnaround time, it was tight, but you did it. What did you learn?

Laurin McDowall [: 00:19:49

I mean, I feel like it's just been such a great experience overall. It has been tight on time, but we've had such a good team and it's been really interesting sort of working with people that, you know, you wouldn't normally get to work with. So I think. And on a personal level as well, you know, I've got some skills that I didn't have before. For example, we worked on an ethics application in order to get feedback on some of the aspects. And then also, you know, some more leadership skills. I'd never run a focus group before, so we got to do that. But, yeah, I think.

Laurin McDowall [: 00:20:35

I think it's been a good. A good year.

Ruth Winden [: 00:20:37

Time well invested. I can see it in your smile. And what about you, Jess? What are you taking away from what we've done together?

Jessica Swanson [: 00:20:47

I think similar to Laurin in particular, the leadership skills were really valuable. I feel like I've learned a lot of new things during this, and I really valued working in a collaboration, not just within, like, my area of science, but being able to collaborate across university - people in professional sciences and services who I wouldn't normally interact with to run a project. So that was really. I really enjoyed that. That was really useful experience as well.

Ruth Winden [: 00:21:14

Yeah, it's been fun, hasn't it? Because Jess, you know, we know each other through my programs, my workshops, you know, and. And this felt like a very equal footing. You know, we were really good partners. And also, you know, getting the chance to work with Taryn and with Anisha and with Nazia, you know, all from different backgrounds. And I, you know, there were seven of us, and somehow we made it work, you know, and different people with different levels of expertise, and we could just come in and support where we needed to support a little bit. And also, I think the diversity of our networks that we could bring in. But that's one thing that I learned again, I mean, it's something that I became so aware of, again, is the power of professional relationships at work, because you all have those relationships in FBS and beyond.

Ruth Winden [: 00:22:03

And I mean, James, you know, we always say, you know, everyone knows James and James knows everyone. I mean, when you think of you pulled in all the professional associations and they couldn't wait to come in and support the project. You know, you had conversations with IT, you know, with different faculties. So it was a big reminder of, you know, how important it is to take time to build those networks, because then suddenly you can move things really fast, much more easily than you could if you didn't have those networks. Would you agree with that, James?

James Warren [: 00:22:34

Definitely. I think for me, it's been, as you said, Ruth, I put it down to my duration here at the University of Leeds, but also working across different faculties that I've rubbed shoulders with so many different people and quite a large network. But I think working cross team as well only shows that it is possible, but also where the difficulties lie in the sense that each team has its own management process and everything. And we had to overcome that. And I think that is where having this existing network and who to contact to try and get things pushed through. Who's the appropriate person? For me, I've always worked cross faculty, I've always liked working with new people and that's been. It's both a challenge and a blessing.

James Warren [: 00:23:21

The challenge is that you get a reputation for knowing who to contact and sometimes it's hard sometimes to get to that person or the appropriate person. Doesn't mean it's not possible, it just means it takes a little bit more persuasion to go through the various hierarchy. But the blessing is that I've worked with so many different people and that's the only reason this initiative was even possible. It was floating the idea with various people and people seeing the potential in it. And that is, that's where having that network has been a huge benefit.

Ruth Winden [: 00:23:52

I think for me, what's also been instrumental is, you know, we're very lucky at Leeds that we have academics and, you know, senior management who are so behind these things. You know, we are on a big research culture drive at the university. They're open for ideas. And I'll never forget when I met Karen at the, you know, the dean at, at the initial coffee morning and, you know, she came over and she shared her love of donuts and we had a chat and off she went and talked to everyone and you could just see how excited and proud she was. And she's been such a stellar support for you, hasn't she? And so that makes me so happy to see, you know, with the right support, with the right encouragement, you know. Yeah, the world's your oyster and we can actually make lasting change. Because the way that you have, for instance, created the hub, the online hub, is very clever. It will need relatively little maintenance going forward because of the way that you've set it up.

Ruth Winden [: 00:24:52

So it's not something that will be out of date in 3 months time unless someone spends enormous amounts time keeping it up to date. So you've been really clever in making sure, you know, how can we create that legacy? How can we build those relationships? And I know that the professional associations and, and I think, James, you gave us some figures on that recently. You know, they've seen a big uptake and for them it's also wonderful because, you know, we need more chartered scientists. It's, it's a credential that is highly respected, it's valid across the world, it's cherished by employers. It is good for the university and research to have people here who are chartered. So it's a win, win for everyone. And I think that's been, you know, another element of the project. You know, it wasn't just anything that you wanted to achieve.

Ruth Winden [: 00:25:37

You were very, very clear, okay, what do we really need? What is career enhancing is having that hub. So we can really see very quickly what's on offer, what's happening, what do I need to know when I start here, when I've been here for a while. So that hub is essential. And then give us recognition for our project management skills that we have as researchers and then give us a chance to get chartered. We prove, you know, we are highly educated, highly capable professionals and we can apply ourselves in whatever careers we want. And that's recognized by the "chartered scientist". And then you did the little icing on the cake. Yes, because we had, we'd been so careful with our resources that we had some resources left at the end.

Ruth Winden [: 00:26:17

And you found very good use of it. And so it's been a really lovely package. So all together when people listen to us and yes, we are very enthusiastic and proud of what you have done with the project. What would be a top tip for anyone in a university, if it's a postdoc listening, or a research leader listening, a research professional listening. If they wanted to run a similar project where the postdocs take the lead and collaborate with professional services colleagues, what would your advice be? What is a tip to make it work and who wants to go first? I'll give you a second to think about it because I'm, you know, this is a question that came out of the blue from Ruth Winden. So what do you think? I see Laurin is smiling. You've got, you've got a top tip. I can see it.

Laurin McDowall [: 00:27:05

Yeah, well, I would just say give them the support and listen to the postdocs and, you know, postdocs know what they need and they know the challenges that they face. And so, yeah, that'd be my top tip. Listen to them!

Ruth Winden [: 00:27:18

Listen to them, and then give them the scope and the support to do something about it. Absolutely. Well, I'm glad you said that. We listened to you, so that's a big compliment. But that's, you know, what I experience in my work daily. You know, we do listen to postdocs and we have open doors and are receptive because we really want to work on this together to make this, you know, a better, more equitable and positive research culture. What about you, Jess? What would your top tip be?

Jessica Swanson [: 00:27:47

I think when you empower people to take control of their career and drive things that support them, you can really like, it turns out, you can make quite a lot of changes, which I don't think any of us really anticipated when we started this. And therefore I think it should just be - give it a go and listen to what postdocs want and try and address the problems because they know the problems they face.

Ruth Winden [: 00:28:08

Yeah, and that's a beautiful thing for you to experience, isn't it? You know, you make your voice heard and you speak to the right people and you come up with ideas and you convince them and, and, and off you go, you know, that's, you know, and I really hope that you in for the rest of your careers, you know, that you keep asking and keep thinking and keep pushing. Because you three are so good at, you know, coming up with ideas and, and really for the benefit of everyone. I mean, that's what always strikes me with you three. You know, you never ever do it for yourself, do you? It's always about your community and, and postdocs and that's who you are. And I know, I keep nagging, put it on your CV. You need to really own it because you, you invested so much of your time into this and I know it was hard because I remember, you know, you had experiments running and then you had to run across the room and get the catering sorted. There was a lot of organizational work behind the scenes and I'm someone who really appreciates that and a lot of people don't because they all see is the event itself, which was wonderful. But why, you know, there's a lot of work that goes in behind the scenes, doesn't it? And, and you did that beautifully and very successfully.

Ruth Winden [: 00:29:19

And James, what's your, what's your tip, your big tip for if anyone wants to give this kind of approach a go, how can they make it work?

James Warren [: 00:29:29

I think it comes back to the old adage, if you don't ask, you don't get, and if you don't get involved and suggest ways to improve things, want to change how things are, nothing will ever change. And the only way we as ECRs can make things happen is by putting our head above the sand. We need to say this is the problem and come up with a solution. Every, everybody has a problem every single day, but it's only when you have a solution, or even if it doesn't work, voice that solution, because it gives people something to build around. They can suggest alternatives, but at least they have something to start that conversation. So be brave. Go talk to senior academics, go talk to senior leadership and ask for the opportunity, ask for the time, ask for the support. And the worst they say is no, but at least they'll give you a reason why.

James Warren [: 00:30:24

If you're not brave and you don't take that opportunity, the answer is no, and you're nowhere wiser. So give it a go. And you'd be surprised how quickly people want to help if they're given the chance to at least input into something constructive and think big. Think bigger than just your immediate team. Find a way to bring in people that you don't work with day to day. Because I think this has been the perfect example where we had an idea to work within a couple of faculties, do something relatively small as a pilot, but because we had the capacity to design something so innovative and so never been done, but something so simple, it has really taken off in a way that none of us imagined, which is. It's a great surprise, but it's also meaning we're now having to deal with where does it go and how can we make it a success beyond the end of this without losing that drive? And it's a lovely position and a lovely problem to have that I don't think Jess and Laurin would disagree. There is that.

James Warren [: 00:31:29

Not privileged is the wrong word. But it's a great position to see that what we wanted to do is a relatively small thing has turned into something so impactful and it is a legacy thing that we might not be here in a year or two, but we will still see an output of what our hard work is and continue to help people beyond our immediate impact. So I think that is a big selling point, is think big. You can always scale back from big if you can't fund it or there's not enough time. But if you think small, it'll remain small. So I think that that is my parting bit of advice.

Ruth Winden [: 00:32:10

Pearl of wisdom. So, yes, you know how much I've loved working with you. I know Taryn and Nazia and Anisha have felt the same. It's been refreshing and exciting and it felt really nice to see how well it worked, but also, you know, how well it was received. I think the timing was just perfect. And now it's, yeah, how would. How do we keep momentum and how do we, you know, roll this process out and. But I wanted to say thank you because I honestly have I couldn't have thought of or wished for better project partners and actually project leaders because you led and we supported and you know, it's been a wonderful experience and I really hope that it sets you up for whatever is next for you in your careers.

Ruth Winden [: 00:32:55

And do me a favour, don't underestimate what a leadership experience this was. I know we have a lot of conversation about what is leadership and how do I put this out on my CV on LinkedIn or wherever you want to bring it in to the process in your careers. But but if this isn't leadership, I don't know what is. So congratulations and thank you so much. It was certainly a highlight of my year here at the university and I wish you all the very best.

Laurin McDowall [: 00:33:19

Thank you Ruth.

Jessica Swanson [: 00:33:19

Thank you.

James Warren [: 00:33:20

Thank you very much Ruth and thank you for being involved and agreeing to our crazy idea .

Ruth Winden [: 00:33:24

Any time! Take care.

Outro [: 00:33:31

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