(S1E5) Meet the Culturositists: Introducing Emma Spary and research culture

Intro:: 00:00:00

Welcome to the Research Culture Uncovered podcast, where in every episode we explore what is research culture and what should it be. You'll hear thoughts and opinions from a range of contributors to help you change research culture into what you want it to be.

Tony:: 00:00:26

Hello, I'm Tony Bromley from the Researcher, uh, Development and Culture team at the University of Leeds. Uh, welcome to, uh, season one where we are meeting all the people who will be presenting in our episodes across the podcast research culture uncovered. We're having a little bit of turning things around today.

Um, Emma, who is head of researcher and development and culture has been introducing our podcast today, but we have to turn it around and we have to interview Emma as well so that, you know, see I'm using the word interview. Sorry Emma, we're having a conversation. Um, so have a conversation with Emma so that you know, and get to know, uh, Emma a little bit ahead of, um, the podcast. So, uh, say hello, Emma.

Emma:: 00:01:09

Hi, and I'm glad it's not an interview that started to worry me there, slightly.

Tony:: 00:01:13

No, Sure it's not the interview. So I have got some questions for you. Well, actually, the the first question, um, because when we meet on Zoom teams, et cetera, you have some interesting pictures behind you.

Now people might think of what's it gonna say? Uh, but there are, well, I can see at least three Star Wars pictures. So what's the, the Star Wars interest then?

Emma:: 00:01:34

I love Star Wars. Um, I have grown up with Star Wars. Um, one of the first things I went to see at the cinema with my dad was Return of the Jedi. Um, and I think it's probably fair to say, I know most of the films off by heart, which drives people mad when I can say what's coming up next. So yeah, behind me I've got, um, pictures of the Millennium Falcon, an X Wing, a tie fighter. What you can't see is the stuff that's over there on the other wall, which is a very random picture of myself and my sister superimposed as Luke Skywalker and Han Solo

I'll just leave it there.

Tony:: 00:02:10

No, let's leave there. Although I'm sure there was a death star on a living room wall at some point, but that's another story. Yeah. So let's, let's focus back, um, on research culture. Um, so as you said, you are head of researcher development and culture at the University of Leeds so we have a, you know, you need to keep that really broad overview of, of what's going on, research culture area.

So I did wanna ask you, you know, really quite the broad question um, what are the key areas you think we need to address in terms of research culture on the uk, even global as a community, What's the key things we need to be addressing at the moment, do you think?

Emma:: 00:02:47

I love why We're starting off with a really small question there,

Sorry about that. I tend to think of research culture as an umbrella, and you'll have heard this more than once, that has multiple different prongs that help support the whole structure. And these prongs aren't independent, so they don't work in isolation. You need all of them working together in order to be able to open the umbrella, and that's what makes things so difficult with research culture.

There are so many priorities, but they're often interwoven with the other priorities. So to try and tackle one individual piece on its own isn't actually gonna lead to much change. But I think one area that runs through everything that I do in particular is that move away from competition and towards collaboration.

So a lot of the negative toxic research environments that we work in or with can be tied back to that competitive atmosphere that exists within research. So even in an institution as large as Leeds, we know that there is internal competition between our own faculties, for example, let alone the competition that then starts to exist when you're looking beyond the university and in other institutions on a national or international level.

So it isn't easy to change one thing because a lot of the drivers of this competitive behavior don't sit within our gift. So whilst we have an ability to influence, we can't directly change them. So until we start tackling things around the competitive environment for research funding, How we publish our research outputs.

It's going to continue to drive a lot of that negativity that creates that toxic environment in which our researchers work. And collaboration is hard. It takes a lot more work. It isn't about developing a process or a policy. Collaboration is about people, and that's one of the reasons that I love doing this job so much is I get to work with individuals, with groups to change culture.

Tony:: 00:04:49

Absolutely. And the, um, just as you were speaking there, just thinking myself, there are a number of things that having at the, at the moment, addressing that competition, um, aspect. Cuz as you say, we can influence, uh, a lot of things rather than change them. So University of Leeds itself and the current strategy is very much, um, trying to address that, but there's one of the one or two other things going on at the moment in those areas.

I just wonder if there's a couple of things that you might mention that's, that's happening in terms of trying to reduce the impact of of competition.

Emma:: 00:05:20

So there is a lot of work that's going on, um, not only within Leeds but within the sector. So there are various networks and groups that are coming together to try and influence the funders.

They have their own strategy for what they want to see in terms of research culture. The publishers have their own, um, views on all of this, and we're starting to see some new initiatives coming up. So one of the things that I think Nick will talk about in his open research series is the new Octopus publishing platform, which is designed to start putting the power back in the hands of the researchers.

And we need more things like that. We need more of these, um, these tries. Not everything's gonna succeed, but we need to keep changing. We need to keep tackling and, and suggesting alternatives.

Tony:: 00:06:07

Yeah. And do you think, you've talked about things being intertwined and interconnected. So you can't necess, if you push on one side of the bubble, it'll pop out at the other side of the bubble and that kind of thing.

But for all the individuals within what we're talking, research community, research culture from the technician, the postgraduate researcher or the research staff, um, people, support staff like our ourselves. Um, Do we all see it differently? Is is are there different specific things that each of these groups, uh, need to look at or as a particular issues?

Or is it you all, all of us in together?

Emma:: 00:06:40

So I think one of the things I really value at Leeds is that when we're talking about researchers, we're really championing everyone that's involved in that research effort. So you might be leading research, you might be delivering research, or you might be supporting research.

So dare I say, it goes back to collaboration. Mm-hmm. Um, but I think there are always gonna be areas of, um, joined up consensus. So thinking about open research, um, development for people, research integrity. But on the flip side of that, it's also right to acknowledge that different communities are going to experience things slightly differently.

So for example, when we talk about our postgraduate researchers, and I know you brought this up in the podcast episode that you did, and that relationship with our supervisors and how there's a power differential that can come in. And that's also replicated in our postdoctoral researchers and their managers. So quite often they are at the point where they want to influence change and try things different.

But if they've got a manager or a supervisor that isn't as engaged with it, that in itself can become a barrier to cultural change. Then with our postdoctoral researchers, we have the ongoing problem of precarious contracts and the way that research is funded. Again, something that's not directly within our gift to change, but it's something that we can keep raising, We can keep challenging, keep asking the questions.

Ruth's also described in her podcast about creating a culture where careers with research is really embraced and how all careers are valuable and it shouldn't be seen as a negative to leave an academic role. We're also trying to show how research leadership is an integral part to everything we do. So we have to be able to develop our researchers, and a key component of that is the research leaders themselves.

So they have an obligation, a responsibility to not only produce world class research, but to develop those researchers in the process, not break them.

Tony:: 00:08:36

Well, this is it. Yes. Yes. Seeing people as people, not just research outputs.

Emma:: 00:08:41

Absolutely. And then we've got our technicians and res and research support staff, so us, Tony, Um, and we can often feel lost in the process that our contributions aren't recognized or rewarded.

And if we really want to move towards collaboration, then it's acknowledging all of those contributions that make research happen. And then I suppose finally, I've just gotta give a shout out to the research leaders who often feel that all of this lands at their feet and that they're out of their depth, and they may not necessarily be an expert in everything that needs to change or needs to happen. So it's how we as an institution can then support them to be able to support other people.

Tony:: 00:09:21

Absolutely. And I think, um, inevitably when we talk about research culture, we can move to some negative aspects of the culture. And, and of course we want to address those negative aspects, but in certainly recent years, there seems to be a lot of positive things going on.

So I just wondered, um, you know, uh, let's look at Leeds. So what sort of things are happening at Leeds at the moment that you know, that you're proud of, that you see as positive in addressing the research culture?

Emma:: 00:09:47

I think we're really lucky actually, as an institution. I probably would say that given my role, but I do think we've got high level support for the work that we're trying to do, and we've been encouraged to take risks. So ask those uncomfortable questions no matter what the answer may be. I remember when we first started this work, uh, Deputy Vice Chancellor, Professor Nick Plant said be brave. Go out and ask the questions. If we really want to change what our culture is, we need to know what it looks like. We need that realistic view.

And as part of that work, the really interesting thing was all this amazing stuff that happens. It's already there. We just don't necessarily know about it. So there's a huge part of what we do to raise awareness and to roll it out more widely. We also have a Dean for Research Culture, so Professor Cat Davies, and you'll get to hear from her in one of the episodes that I'm doing, and her role really is to champion the work that we're doing to create a strategy and an implementation plan for the university.

Okay. We've already published our statement on research culture, so the expectations that we have as an institution, and we've published a responsible research metrics statement. Gotta be really careful how I say that one, to get the words in the right order, um, and how we're going to use research metrics in our internal processes, but it's not just about creating policies and guidance.

And I think people become sick of me saying, you don't change culture with a piece of paper, but it's right. It's how you implement that and how you support staff to be able to implement that. So it's going right back to that people component that I really love about my job. We're in the process of creating a research culture strategy, and importantly that is based on what we've heard from our research community.

So we've held regular research culture cafes where we've asked what's working, raising that great practice that's already out there, what's not working, So let us know the good, the bad, and the ugly. Importantly what ideas we have for change. And we've used that to start building a research culture community where all of this is shared openly and feeds directly into the work that the research culture team will be taking forward.

Tony:: 00:11:57

Yeah. And um, just thinking within there, there was only because I was involved, I can remember the re research, Cruc crucibles research culture crucible, um, and that you talked about collaboration. So I wonder if you wanna say some more about that, because that was collaborative, wasn't it? And the whole thing.

Emma:: 00:12:13

Yeah, it was so crucible was something that we'd run as a program for researcher development, helping them to put together ideas for funding. And we had this amazing brainwave, well, okay, let's take a, um, a program that works, but use it in a really different format. So we wanted to encourage people to try ideas to improve research culture, and we took the opportunity to open the program up to anybody. So we had teams of, uh, postgraduate researchers, technicians, professional services, all coming together and forming teams to tackle various elements of research culture. And at the end of it, we ended up with seven funded projects that are just coming to an end now, or they're currently ongoing.

Some of them are, Really long lasting, you know, creating different networks and communities of practice. Looking at how we engage with end users. One to look at how we build collaboration within the institution. So it, it was a really positive experience and I'm really pleased to say we're gonna be doing them again.

Tony:: 00:13:20

Yes, it's gonna be good. I'm gonna be involved as well, but I'm sure you said that we had an amazing idea. I'm sure it was your amazing idea, and I think you're being modest . So in, so that's now, And now if we just take a look to the, um, future and a lot of what you've said so far, I guess is ongoing and it's gonna go into the future, but, you know, in five years time, what would you like to see?

What would you like to be able to look back and think yeah, this has been good. This has been good. So where, where do you want us to be in a, say five years'?

Emma:: 00:13:50

Um, well, wouldn't it be great if in five years time I was out of a job? And I know that sounds really strange, but if my job was no longer needed, then it would mean that all of our cultural issues were gone and that everything was working the way it should.

Is it realistic? Um, probably not. And for the sake of my mortgage, I probably hope not. But I suppose it swings right back to the beginning where I talked about that umbrella. I would like us as a sector to have made progress against each of these prongs. Even if that progress is small, it's that constant chipping away at the larger issues that is gonna take a long time to change.

We know when we start this work, it's not gonna happen overnight. You know, this is probably gonna continue ever evolving as new things come to the forefront. So, in effect, it's probably never going to be perfect. But I would like to see it get to a point where research is more collaborative, where it supports the people that work in research.

So we're no longer having conversations about how we reward and recognize individual contributions, where we are having those career conversations and where we are championing careers outside of academia and where leaving academia doesn't feel like a failure. And I think that's really important.

Absolutely. And also where we've got key drivers in the sector. So thinking about the funders of research, the publishers. Our own institutions and getting them to realize the responsibility and power that they have to change research culture for individuals and that we're only going to progress if we're all working at this together.

And dare I stay in a collaborative way where we're all putting the needs of the research and the researchers. Before the needs of institutions and, uh, dare I say, publishers and funders.

Tony:: 00:15:46

Uh, absolutely. And we haven't, I don't think we've used the word Concordat yet. I don't know if we need, do we need to use the word concordat? Because has, you know, my understanding that that has had, has been influential. Um, and that perhaps is one example of policy that can be influential. It has been influential, hasn't it? Has it?

Emma:: 00:16:04

It has. I can't believe I've done maybe 15 minutes without mentioning the Concordat. I think that's probably a world record for me.

Tony:: 00:16:12

I thought I'd give you the opportunity,

Emma:: 00:16:14

Just to remind me, one of the things I do. Yeah, so when we're talking about the Concordat, we're talking about the researcher development Concordat and I do think actually from a sector perspective, that has been a bit of a game changer. Um, it's laid down expectations that we have from our funders, from our institutions, from our research managers, and from the researchers themselves.

And it sets out the way we would like research to happen. So the environment in which we would like to be able to do research, it also tackles some of the employability aspects. So thinking about the precarity and whilst we might not necessarily be able to get rid of precarious contracts, we can certainly make things a lot better for the people that are on them.

And then crucially that, uh, professional career development. So what the institution is there to provide, what the researchers can expect in terms of development when they take on a postdoctoral role. And one of the things I'm really keen to do, particularly at Leeds and and to encourage others to do is use the Concordat as a driver in their institutions and widen out the benefits of it wherever they can.

So whilst it's there primarily for our postdoctoral researchers, at Leeds we're using it to influence how we develop our post-graduate researchers, how we develop our technicians, how we develop our academics, and I think that's where the power of the Concordat can come in.

Tony:: 00:17:38

Excellent, thank you. And now I'm gonna have to bring things to a close.

So thank you very much for really good overview of the issues in terms of research culture at Leeds and in in general. Um, and we've been finishing these episodes in, in the introductions. So this is in, um, finishing the, uh, the episodes with the person then talking about this series. So Emma, um, what will you be doing in your podcast series that's coming up?

Emma:: 00:18:03

So this is a really tricky one, um, because I think everyone else has thought about their seasons in a lot more detail and I've been so focused on getting this season out I actually haven't thought about what comes next. So I think mine is gonna be highlighting some of that best practice that's happening across the sector.

So I want to be talking to key people in different areas who all have an important role in research culture. So showcasing what's really working. But also highlighting some of those challenges and where progress is being stalled. So thinking about, um, you know, all of the people that are involved in that and the work they do and how they can start to break down those barriers.

Maybe asking a few uncomfortable questions along the way as well. I'm also gonna be dropping in a couple of bonus episodes because we're probably aware that research culture is always evolving, so there's always something on the move. There's always something new being thrown at us, so I'm not necessarily gonna have the luxury of waiting for my season, which I think is quite far down the order now with everyone else.

Tony:: 00:19:05

It is a little bit.

Emma:: 00:19:07

Yeah, so just allowing us to highlight some of this as and when, and I know the co-hosts are also gonna be doing special one-off episodes, uh, when they're timely and when they're needed. I'd also like to finish this by putting a shout out to our listeners and if there is an aspect of research culture that you'd like to talk about, uh, please do contact us, come and be on our podcast.

Come and join us. Share your knowledge and experience with us.

Intro:: 00:19:34

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