(S6E6) Unlocking Researchers' Career Success Through Group Programs

Intro:

Welcome to the Research Culture Uncovered podcast, where in every episode we explore what is research culture and what should it be? You'll hear thoughts and opinions from a range of contributors to help you change research culture into what you want it to be.

Emma Spary:

Hi, it's Emma, and as a quick introduction, I lead the researcher development and culture team at the University of Leeds. In my podcast episodes, I'm focusing on research leadership in research culture, sharing, things we're trying here at Leeds, and also examples from across the sector. So in today's episode, I'm going back to my double act with Ruth Winden. Our careers with research consultant and what we're going to be focusing on today is an area that Ruth is really passionate about. It's about cohort based programs for career development, something she has huge amounts of experience in, has worked in this area for many years and is now bringing this approach to our researchers at Leeds. So, Ruth, do you just want to give a quick introduction to yourself and say hello?

Ruth Winden:

Yeah, hello. My name is Ruth Winden and I'm a very passionate and enthusiastic researcher developer. And I joined the University of Leeds three years ago and I brought the group based coaching approach to researcher development. And I'm here with Emma today because I can see some very clear benefits. But I also want to be absolutely open about some disadvantages of using that approach so that you, as our colleagues in the field, can decide whether this is something you want to give a go.

Emma Spary:

And I think it's fair to say we've been testing things over the last couple of years with the pandemic and a switch to online, and then in person, we're still learning ourselves. So what I actually asked Ruth to do was give me a list of the main benefits that she sees and also some of those disadvantages so that you can learn from our experience and also perhaps point us in the right direction if you know of something that's working in your areas that we haven't picked up on. And I think the easiest way for us to tackle this is to go through each one in order and allow Ruth to give us a bit more insight into her views on it, why she thinks it's a good idea, why she thinks it's working for our researchers, and also how this could be implemented more widely in other institutions. So I'm going to kick off with a really easy one, Ruth, which is around the engagement, that personal engagement of researchers. And this is something that you highlighted as a key approach to the programs that we're trying to build. So what is it that makes the engagement of these programs such a benefit.

Ruth Winden:

So when I start group coaching programs at the University of Leeds and I get the group together for the first time, often that's between ten and twelve people. And they come through the door and we agree that we will be work. How are we working together? And I set some rules and there's this confidentiality piece so we can develop that trust in each other. And they start looking around and they realize, I am not the only one in this situation. You can just see that relief in their faces. And it's about recognizing I'm not the only one who might be stuck in my career or who doesn't know which direction I want to go, or who has aspirations, but feels a little bit worried about how to fulfill them. Whatever it is, they're all in the same boat, but they often don't feel like that because they feel little bit ashamed or worried or concerned. They don't necessarily talk about that in their research groups.

Ruth Winden:

They come to the group and they realize, oh, I'm not the only one. And that is such a great starting point. And you can just see it in their faces. They're relaxed, and then we can start working together. And I think it's about being heard, being seen, and recognizing it's okay. And then we can start the program very different from doing it one to one with a career coach. Of course, you're seen there as well, but I think it's seeing that your colleagues or some of your colleagues are feeling and thinking the same that is really empowerinG.

Emma Spary:

And I know we're going to come into some of the challenges later on, but one of the things that you have mentioned with this approach is that it does take a bit of time to get people to come out of themselves. But you've mentioned that the recognition within the group that they're not alone, they're not in the same boat. There's a peer community that they can learn from. How does that learning actually happen in practice?

Ruth Winden:

Yeah, so it's fascinating because you will always have some people who are more open, share more, feel more comfortable with that than others. But over time, I've seen such change in people. So some people might have been a little bit reticent at the beginning, or they may be a little bit more reserved. They might not have that confidence to be a bit more vocal, and then you take them through that process. And obviously our programs are long. We're talking about four to six months here, biweekly meetings. So it really gives people the opportunity to get to know each other, to feel safe. And that's obviously something I set up that way.

Ruth Winden:

How can we feel safe with each other? Because if they don't feel safe, we don't trust each other and we can't really work together. So that's really important at the very beginning. But there is this piece about learning from each other in a very supportive environment. And what I love about this also is if you work with a coach, one to one, and I've done a lot of that in my life. I'm there with my client, with my researcher. It's their perspective, my perspective. But when you learn in a group, you see different perspectives, different thoughts, different comments, different concerns. It's a much more holistic exposure to different reactions, different feelings, different thought processes.

Ruth Winden:

And I think that's actually a really big benefit of working in groups because you get that breadth and you often get that depth with time as well.

Emma Spary:

And it's also a bit more fun, let's be honest, working in a group.

Ruth Winden:

Absolutely.

Emma Spary:

I know some people will come in and they'll know this is going to be a lot of individual work, but I think once you start getting that fun element into it, it can actually help to really push those conversations and to increase that openness that they have within the group. You mentioned there, Ruth, about the working one to one as a coach and the investment that it takes from somebody in your position. So presumably with these cohort or group based approaches, there's less dependency on you as that expert. Is that an accurate reflection?

Ruth Winden:

I think you're spot on, Emma. And for me, that is really important because, yes, I'm an expert, I'm a career professional, but I want the researchers to recognize you wouldn't be here if you didn't already have a really decent level of career management expertise. And when you work in a one to one arrangement, even if you try so hard as a coach not to be the expert and really help the other person bring in themselves and recognize how well they already do these things and what they can enhance in a group, it's much easier. And for me, that is a really important piece as well, because I think they all need to recognize they are already doing a lot of the things really well. And if they have gaps, absolutely fine. They also learn from each other. And I think by recognizing, oh, I can do this, my CV is actually not as bad as I thought, or, oh, someone said something really nice about the way I approach this question. Whatever it can be, I think it really builds people's confidence and it doesn't all have to come from me as the careers expert, because for me, all these programs, Emma, are about how am I helping people develop long term career management skills? And the more they recognize how good they are already, what they need to learn and learning it, and building that confidence in their own career management skills, that's what I'm after, and that's why I think the group programs can be really helpful in that regard as well.

Emma Spary:

So do you do a lot of work with them as a group on that identification of their own skills and their own expertise to give them that foundation?

Ruth Winden:

Absolutely. So when I work with a group of let's ten or twelve, yes, it's a group, but they're also still ten or twelve individuals in there. And that is a challenge for the facilitator and the coach. You have that group and you have the group dynamics, but you also have the individuals. And in a way, what we've done at leads is we offer actually both, don't we? So we have a group as the main focus, but everyone also gets 2 hours of one to one career coaching with me in addition. And that's important to me because sometimes people have things that are better discussed in a one to one relationship in a situation like that, or they might be a little bit shy about if there's something very sensitive, or if they don't really feel there could be some personal issues they don't want to necessarily discuss in the group, or they just need very clear. Okay, let's go through your new LinkedIn profile, and let's just work through it and hear a few pointers. So there are different parts of adding a little bit of one to one career coaching, but the majority really happens in the group and I think people take to it.

Ruth Winden:

And for me, one of the most wonderful things is to see how people blossom through the process. So some of the most quiet people have negotiated the most incredibly impressive job opportunities with an employer, and they've said that to me at the end, my word, what I've learned here is I've gained so much in confidence. And if there's one thing that everyone gains on these programs is that confidence, and I think it does come from having also the appreciation from others benchmarking themselves to some extent. I'm not a fan of comparing because we always compare ourselves in a negative way, but the benchmarking and realizing I'm actually doing quite well over here, better than I thought, let's go for it. That gives them the confidence.

Emma Spary:

So when you joined us, we'd already been running career architect, which is the program that you developed for us when you were working with us as a consultant. And you've already mentioned that one is six months in duration. And since then, we've introduced. I say we, Ruth has introduced our career accelerator, which is a shortened down version of career Architect, which runs for three months. And then we've got other programs coming in, like career Catalyst, and also our boost, pick and mix. So there's quite a lot of different opportunities for people to get involved. But these cohorts are a significant time investment. They are a longer term investment for the people that are involved.

Emma Spary:

And I know that you're really passionate about this because you feel that's what gives them that deeper transformation. What does that look like for you? How does that work?

Ruth Winden:

I think you're right, Emma. Yes, of course. I love running workshops, and they have their place, because sometimes you just need a quick intervention, a two hour session, and off you go and can implement what you needed to learn. But I'm interested in these deeper transformations because I think, again, it's that longer term career management, that skill that I want people to develop. And the transformation comes from coming to the process, and especially with career architect, not having any idea who you are, what you want, and what's out there. And then step by step, going through this modular program together with your peers, supported by me and supported by others, where you can just ask anything and you can say, I'm scared of this because most people are a little bit scared, and it's okay. And we're working together on this. And some people have really made really quite dramatic changes in their lives because they felt supported and they felt trusted, and they knew we were their champions.

Ruth Winden:

And it's so lovely to see. Also, sometimes you have. I mean, not sometimes, actually, always there's someone who is the first to have a breakthrough, a first with a success, and we all celebrate it because. So happy for them. But it's also a fantastic signal for everyone else. Oh, it actually is possible. If I want to go and get a lectureship, like in Korea accelerator, or I want to change career, like in Korea architect, it's possible. I can see people do it, and that gives people a greater self belief that it's, you know, it's so much about Mindset and confidence because they're all so capable.

Ruth Winden:

We know this, Emma. That's not the issue. The issue is feeling maybe a little bit worried or concerned, or they need validation. They need someone to come along, whether that's me or their peers in the group and say, my word, you are really good at this. Or have you ever thought how incredible it is that you can do X, Y and Z, or how you manage that project, or how you manage different people? Or the guts you have to stand up there and present this to experts? Because one thing that all the researchers do, and they have not met any researchers who would be different, is they all take for granted what they do. And then Ruth winning comes along with the help of the group and we challenge you and also affirm each other and say, don't take it for granted. You do things in your way and you make such a difference and let's recognize that. And hearing that from me and from the colleagues, or seeing that on paper, or the LinkedIn profile or when we do our practice interviews, whatever it is, they start to see, I'm really good at this, I can do this.

Ruth Winden:

And that's the breakthrough. And I think that's what. Yes. Can I do this in a one to one career coaching environment? Yes, but it takes a lot of time. And in terms of resourcing point of view, I think the groups are actually more, they might look more resource intensive, but because you're working in a group of, let's say ten or twelve, it's actually, I think, a really good investment of our time as researcher developers because the outcomes are so incredibly promising.

Emma Spary:

I like the way Ruth says promising there. She's actually had some outstanding successes with these programs. That's why we're still running them. And for us, it's always a bit of a double edged sword, isn'T it, when they get those early wins? Because it's like, well, are we actually now going to lose them from the program that they're on? Not always. Some of them do still continue even though they have secured another position. But do you find that that really does drive the group? So if somebody does get that early success or that they have made that dramatic change that you referenced, does that then spur the rest of the group on?

Ruth Winden:

Absolutely, Emma. I mean, without a shadow of the doubt. And I always celebrate the people. I mean, some of the people who got really early wins say, I'm so sorry I wasted a space here for someone else who needed more time, said, no, you didn't. It's always fantastic to have someone who has an early breakthrough, and it could be because they just were in the right place and something came along and others are under immense time pressure. The quickest I've ever had anyone make a huge transformation was in three months these things happen. But the others say, oh, wow, it is possible. It becomes real.

Ruth Winden:

And I think that is such an eye opener. I always say to them, okay, if I'm sitting here on my own in six months time, I've done my job, because basically then it means all of you have moved on.

Emma Spary:

What about if those early wins don't come? How does that affect the group dynamic and the motivation? Does that then make it harder from your perspective?

Ruth Winden:

I do think the early wins make it easier for me. But on the other hand, I'm a storyteller and obviously I respect people's confidentiality. But the fact that I've worked with hundreds and hundreds of researchers going through these processes with me, I always have some stories. And so if I don't have the early win in my group, I can bring out stories and I have plenty of them. And you know what? The researchers love that because again, it gives them hope. That's what it is. It gives them hope and certainty. What I'm trying to do here, I'm not the first others have done before me, and there's no reason why I can't do it.

Ruth Winden:

And that's what really happens together. Yes. And we celebrate the successes. I think it's that hope piece that people see. Yeah, I can see it now. And when you can see it, you believe it, and then you go for it.

Emma Spary:

And she is a great storyteller. There are lots of stories and there's lots of successes to draw. It's also, it's not something that finishes at the end of the program, is it? Ruth, I know you work really hard to keep those connections going, those networks growing. Why is that an important part of the programs?

Ruth Winden:

It's interesting, isn't it? Because a, I think people really connect with their group members because they go through quite a lot. We have laughs, we have giggles, but we also have tears, we have sometimes huge disappointment. And the group is there to support people. Let's say someone finds their dream job, and I just don't get that job offer at the end. It's so disappointing. But the group holds them and supports them. And that's a really important part of doing these transitions because these transitions can be very lonely otherwise. But they have the group and they have me, and we become quite close, obviously not too close, but close enough to give each other that support.

Ruth Winden:

And so the other thing is the ethos. I have always run these groups in terms of, okay, let's help each other. But also there have been people before you who've been in a similar situation. So we've built over the years now. It's ten years now, isn't it, Emma? With Career Architect, we have an incredibly committed alumni group of career architect people. And some of them still email me, and some of them I still see on LinkedIn say, you would be so proud. I negotiated a great offer or whatever it could be. And it's always been that people have felt so grateful to the university for having had that opportunity, they want to give something back.

Ruth Winden:

So they say, Ruth, if you ever need anyone wants to talk to me about my career choices or where I'm now, just put them in touch. And I do this regularly, and no one has ever said no. And I think that community, that really strong alumni group, the ethers of we know what it's like, we help each other. We've always carried that forward. And that's something I'm really proud of, because it makes life so much easier. Because when our current career architect people reach out to previous participants who have made transitions, and whether that is into industry or got a lectureship or whatever their choices are, these people understand exactly where the current career architect people or the current participants are, because they remember. Oh, I remember. It's a really tricky time when you need to move forward and you don't know exactly where you want to go and what it's like outside of academia or what it's like to be a lecturer.

Ruth Winden:

That common emotional connection and that shared experience, that makes it really special. And for me, the whole piece of it is, yeah, it's a side effect of doing these cohort based programs, but there is something about the longevity and the future relationship building. And then also, quite selfishly, I love to see what happens to people, because I do invest a lot in those relationships and these group programs. It does take a lot out of you as a facilitator, because you're very invested. I don't think you can really do it without being invested. You get to know people so well when you work with them over six months. And for me, it's just so lovely to see when I get these messages of success, or when I see them on LinkedIn and they've had another promotion or they got an award or whatever it could be. It makes me so proud, because I've always believed in their potential, and it's just so nice to see that they get the chance to really reach that potential.

Emma Spary:

I completely agree. It is lovely when we see those, like you said, the LinkedIn profiles changing all the messages that they drop. I think there's also an opportunity to hear from our previous career Architect alumni in your podcast season that you did at the start when you were looking at some of the people who've gone on to career changes. SO if you haven't had an opportunity to listen, I would suggest you go back and do so. It's not all plain sailing, though, is it, Ruth? We could harp on about the benefits for ages, but unfortunately, there are some disadvantages to this approach. And it wouldn't be the research culture Uncovered podcast if we didn't share some of the less beneficial sides of it. I think the first one, and I don't think you'll get any argument from anyone else who does this sort of work, is the resource that's involved. What does that look like from your perspective?

Ruth Winden:

Absolutely, Emma. It is something I do not want to deny. I think we need to go into this with open eyes. So the time commitment is there. Once you've got a program that you know works okay, that's done, but you're investing in the people. You have a number of people you are working with. I set them assignments. I need to look at the assignments.

Ruth Winden:

I need to respond. We have our teams group where they can come back to me with anything. So that is a big time investment. It's also time investment for the participants and not for everyone. It is right when I do my briefings and my advertising, the next cohort, I must sound so horrible, because I keep mentioning to people, I expect full commitment. I expect a lot, and you'll get a lot out of it. And I mean it. And I'm very strict on these things.

Ruth Winden:

I do not want people to come along and just, oh, yeah, I give it a go, and if I don't like it, I'm out. That's not good for the group. So you always have to think about what is important for the group. I don't want people on the program who don't like working with other people or who say, well, I'm not prepared to share or anything like this. So it takes that mindset again. That takes time to look at who's coming to the program. You have to have those briefings and really make your expectations very clear. You need to have these application forms.

Ruth Winden:

You read them all. They do a lot of work before they come even onto the program because I set the bar high, because I only want people on the program are really committed. And so that's a resource. And then obviously, do you run it with one or two people? I mean, I run a lot of career architect of the programs on my own these days. I know I can handle it, it's okay. But if you're starting out, I would not recommend doing this on your own. Do it with an experienced colleague. Co facilitate.

Ruth Winden:

So there are all these things that you need to think about, and it is time consuming, but it is also incredibly rewarding. And I think that's really, as an institution thinking, okay, we put this much in. What do we get out and what do the participants get out? And so far I think we still agree the positives are greater than the negatives. But resource is an issue.

Emma Spary:

It really is. If I could clone her, it would be perfect because we'd be able to run more of these programs. But unfortunately, at the moment, there is only one. You've also mentioned there, Ruth, about that fairness to the group and know we do have people who drop out. They do come onto career architect or career accelerator thinking that this is going to be the program for them. And then for whatever reason, they either disengage from the program or they drop out. So this group based approach isn't for everyone, is it? So how do you tackle that?

Ruth Winden:

It's interesting. Until the pandemic, I was so proud. I had 100% completion rate. And I think it's because people were so invested. It might have also been because I was so upfront about, look, this is what it takes and I need to be honest with you, and if you're prepared to do XYZ, then please come onto the program. Since the pandemic, I don't know exactly what has changed, but I had more dropouts. But we see that across research or development offerings. I think something has shifted.

Ruth Winden:

But for me, the most important thing is that people are willing to come in and share. Obviously it all starts with setting clear boundaries and rules. So I spent a lot of time at the beginning coming from a group facilitation background, in setting a really ideal atmospherE. People can feel safe. They don't have to share if they don't want to share, but sort of setting expectations and building that trust with each other. Once we've got that in place. People do share, sometimes really surprisingly honestly, which is wonderful. But if people are not really interested in working this together with others, if they don't share, or if they're not prepared to give feedback, I think it's really hard to do.

Ruth Winden:

So there is some work that we as facilitators need to do upfront so that we don't bring in the wrong people. Because, for instance, one of the reasons with career architect, for instance, why we're so keen on saying, okay, if you have a fellowship application or you know that an academic career path is right for you, this is not the program for you. We want people who are unclear what they want to do and they're open minded and they want to explore because can you imagine suddenly you have a group where it's mixed and some people want to stay in academia and others don't. That's actually emotionally quite difficult because people do feel vulnerable to admit. I'm at this point now where I want to look at new career opportunities and taking my wonderful researcher background into new areas. If you're surrounded by people saying, well, I want to stay in academia because that's really my career path and I don't understand how on earth you even want to think of leaving. That is not a good environment for the group and for individuals to feel safe. So there is quite a bit of making sure the right people with the right mindset and the openness, and I'm human, I understand.

Ruth Winden:

Some people go on holiday over six months. Of course they do, or they get ill, or they have another meeting that can't cancel or whatever it is, things get in the way. Of course that happens. But in general, I need to have a commitment to say, this is important to me. I'm willing to give this two or 3 hours a week. And what people then say to me is they actually really like the fact that it's so long because they said it's always there at the background. I'm always in this open space, but being focused on my career and thinking about things and taking it slowly, step by step, because career transitions do take a long time and having that space around you that is supportive over that length of time does make a lot of sense because it's almost like the environment, the safe space to take you through that transition that can at stages or at points, really be quite tumultuous for some people and for others it's plain sailing. You never know what happens.

Emma Spary:

And I suppose in addition to the participants that you've got, there's also the role that you play as the facilitator. Now, you have a coaching background, and I know that you draw on that extensively in these programs, but this is something that you need to have that level of experience and confidence as someone who can deliver the program. Is that a fair analysis?

Ruth Winden:

Yeah, I think it is fair, because now we're getting into group dynamics. If you're working with a group of eight or ten or twelve it's not only the whole group, it's also relationships between them and what can go wrong or what can go right or how do you deal with conflict? These are things that, yeah, you don't have that in a one to one career coaching situation, but in a group you do. And I would always encourage people to work with an experienced facilitator coach, do together and learn. I mean, we all start somewhere. I started learning. I learned it 15 years ago. It's something I really enjoy doing. Am I perfect? No.

Ruth Winden:

Am I making mistakes? Yes. That is part of our journeys. But I have the confidence to go in and to think I can deal with whatever people throw at me. And having that confidence built over years, that's the outcome of it. But I would not say to people, oh, do it if you have no experience of it because I think it puts a lot of pressure on you. But I would always say, work with someone who has more experience, do it together. Then you can also debrief in confidence or get some supervision, get some support in. But I personally think it's one of the nicest and most engaging ways because you can see people unfold in a way that in one to one you don't necessarily see.

Ruth Winden:

And it's also really lovely to see the energy of the group. And you know what, every single group I've worked with over these years, and there's been many of them, everyone is completely different. And that's also really interesting from a facilitator and coach's point of view. You're always challenged in new ways.

Emma Spary:

I know that's something that you mentioned quite a lot of as being a positive, that you never know what the group is going to get to look like until you start working with them. And that whole group dynamic part coming in, how do you, as the deliverer of these programs, maintain your role as that expert guide rather than the person that they think is there to help fix them potentially?

Ruth Winden:

Oh, that's a good question. So I think from the very start, I go in and say, okay, my title might be careers with research consultant, and yes, I have a lot of expertise, but so have you. And I go in deliberately like that and really help them recognize the expertise they have. And some of them have amazing expertise. I don't know nothing about certain fields or different experiences or career management in different countries, and I think it's important that we go, however experienced we are as researcher developers, we stay humble. And it's absolutely fine for me to say I don't know who knows or do you know? Or let's find out together, because that is that curiosity. It's important that I also model that because I need them to be curious. It's the same with openness.

Ruth Winden:

I need to be open about things so they can be open. So in many ways, how we behave as facilitators and coaches, the others then mirror, we mirror the process for them. And that's another thing that I really quite enjoy. And you know what? I'm like, hands up. If I don't know something, it's not an issue for me. I just admit it. It's not even admitting saying I don't know everything, nor do you. But together we can work this out.

Ruth Winden:

And that's also quite liberating because often they feel they have to be the expert at everything. And that's a pressure that I don't want them to be under.

Emma Spary:

We are almost up to time, but I have one final question, Ruth. For anyone who's thinking about adopting these cohort based programs, we have resources that are available on our website, and I'll drop a link into the show notes to just give people an overview of the type of programs that we run and the content. But what would you say to anyone that's thinking about doing these?

Ruth Winden:

I would say explore, find people to do it with and then learn and go forward because I think it's such an enriching experience. And in my view, the researchers have re responded so well to them. And you will always have allies in the groups as well. Don't forget that there are always people, you will always have some participants who are just doing working alongside you and they're holding the group together. And I think I love coproduction and co creation and I think for me, these group based programs that we're offering is the perfect arena to co create and have those partnerships with the researchers that we're after.

Emma Spary:

So that means you're going to continue running them for us?

Ruth Winden:

Oh, I'd love to if you let me, Emma. I'm all for it.

Emma Spary:

Brilliant. Thank you very much, Ruth, for joining us today and hopefully we'll get you on another session soon.

Ruth Winden:

Thank you, Emma.

Intro:

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