(Episode 104) Research Impact Heroes: Insights from Professor Mark Reed

Intro: 00:00:00

Welcome to the Research Culture Uncovered podcast, where in every episode we explore what is research culture and what should it be. You'll hear thoughts and opinions from a range of contributors to help you change research culture into what you want it to be.

Ged Hall: 00:00:25

Welcome. My name is Ged Hall and I'm an Academic Development Consultant for Research Impact at the University of Leeds. And all of the podcast episodes I contribute to the Research Culture Uncovered podcast focus on some aspects of research impact, and they're all available via a playlist, which is in the show notes.

But today is the first of a new series of interviews called Impact Heroes, and there's going to be a new playlist for that. The idea for this series has three roots. The first is that I've been using the term for years to describe lots of people whose work in Research Impact has really helped and inspired me in my own work.

The second route is that people across the world who work in the Research Impact space nearly always describe how wonderful a community it is, with lots of collaborations and interconnections across that social network. And the final route is is that this podcast has given me an excuse to get in touch with people and invite them for a chat about Research Impact and its role in changing research culture, which is one of the things that I'm really, really passionate about, so it's been fabulous for that.

the series formed earlier in: 2024

Now Mark did his PhD at Leeds and his first academic job was also at Leeds. But he'd moved to Aberdeen by the time I joined the university in 2011. So we first met in a big co production workshop with lots of water and land use and policy people at a hotel near Leeds train station. And I'm guessing here because I haven't written down the date, but I think it was sometime in 2012.

Handbook that he published in: 2016

But I'm really starting to give away some of what might be in Mark's first answer to the first question I'll ask him. So I'm going to stop there and welcome Mark Reed to the Research Culture Uncovered podcast. Hi Mark.

Mark Reed: 00:03:06

Fantastic to be with you, Ged, as ever, and a far too generous introduction, I must say, but, um, but the feeling is mutual.

I've always admired your work and learned so much from you over the years. Ged, it's always a pleasure to work with you.

Ged Hall: 00:03:20

Thanks, Mark. I'm going to take that and, uh, and bank it in my, um, my little file of lovely things people have said. So yeah, that's, um, interestingly one, I've just been. Interviewed. So the University of Leeds has this, um, 15 to 1.

So 15 questions to one person is what the, what the thing is about. And it goes on our, on our staff intranet. And, and they, they asked me, um, what did I feel most proud of? And I kind of thought about that question long and hard and it isn't actually the big things, it's kind of those little moments where somebody has thanked you for something, no matter how small or big it felt to me at the time, but it was those, so just hearing that, I'm going to put that in my, in my list of, list of things to think about.

Mark Reed: 00:04:16

As a little thing, actually, you taking that punt on me and Ana based on that connection and Leeds became one of the first universities that I trained at, if not the first one. I can't remember, it was very, very early on. And I look back now and I kind of feel slightly embarrassed because I can do so much better now, but it was the best that I could do at the time.

Um, and uh, and yeah, I, I still do not have a copy of that original course handbook. I would love to see one of those again. And again, I will probably cringe with embarrassment when I see small beginnings. Um, and we were both there right at the beginning of that. And now, yeah, we've trained, uh, yeah, 55 different countries, um, over 200 institutions around the world.

Um, And, um, and yeah, it's a modest impact, um, but it's a growing impact. And, um, and it all started in Leeds.

Ged Hall: 00:05:11

Yeah, it did. And I'll, and I'll, and I'll take that because, um, yeah, it was, it was, uh, you know, I remember the real differences between those first two courses, you know, that It very much was learn and adapt and iterate.

me of my own approach in that: 2011

And I started at Leeds in August. So in that early period, I really did go around the university almost in a participatory research way going. Can I help you with your impact? And kind of like, Oh, so that's a challenge. I think I might have to develop an activity or, you know, some learning content around that.

And so, yeah, it was fascinating to see somebody else doing the same thing, but we've kind of, we've kind of jumped into that, uh, that first question. So Mark, in kind of in your own words, uh, tell us the story about your route into research impact, you know, the why. um, the joys you've had and, you know, maybe the bumps on the way.

Mark Reed: 00:06:38

Yeah, well, I guess it starts very early actually for me. So, um, uh, I was born into a missionary family. Uh, so my, uh, great great grandparents or great great great grandparents were some of the first missionaries in Central Africa. Um, uh, I'm, yeah, kind of fortunate in terms of the brand of missionaries that they were, um, now.

Um, uh, that, uh, they were brethren, which meant that they didn't collaborate with, uh, with the colonial authorities. Um, uh, and they were opposed to slaves. Um, they actually, uh, uh, they used to redeem slaves, um, when they could, and bring them into their mission camp. Um, uh, and they did what they could to sabotage slaving routes, uh, and such like.

And that's, of course, not to say that the missionaries haven't done great ill, as well as good, in their work, but growing up in a family like that, there was this assumption, because through every generation, up until that point, the majority of my families had worked as missionaries. And so there was this assumption that when you grow up, you will do something to make the world a better place.

And just this innate assumption that your sphere of influence, of course, it's global. Which is kind of an unusual assumption to grow up with, uh, growing up. And so, uh, age 12, I decided I'm going to be a missionary. I'd read all these inspiring stories of my ancestors, and I'm going to follow in their footsteps.

Uh, my original plan was to do medicine. Wasn't clever enough to do that. Um, so I decided let's go into development work. I went to university to study to, to be a development worker. Um, as part of that went to Uganda and saw the underbelly of development work and all the things that, uh, that were going wrong, um, uh, that have gone wrong and, uh, and fell out of love with that idea.

Um, and it was, uh, a, a lecturer, Michelle Pinard, uh, in my final year. Who inspired me, um, I was so inspired by her course and the, as I looked at what she was doing and the research she was doing to affect change and the way she was inspiring all of us. I said to myself, I want to be doing what you are doing.

I want to stand in front of a class. And be able to inspire the socks of these students with the incredible good that I'm doing through research. Because actually compared to a development worker working in one village and then that village, and trying to effect change in that way through research, you can actually have that global impact.

And so that started me, uh, on my path, uh, towards being, uh, a researcher with my goal being clearly to do research so that I could have an impact, um, uh, both, uh, in the, in, in the outside world and, uh, and on students. Um, uh, and, uh, so my PhD, uh, at, um, at University of Leeds, uh, was working in the Kalahari.

Um, and, um, despite getting my PhD, I, I, I, I failed to achieve the impact that I want, that I wanted, um, and, and so there was a real sense that, that actually this, there was a kind of a post colonialist kind of extractive element to this, that I go out there and I come back with a PhD and a nicely paid career.

Uh, and I didn't really help anyone. Um, uh, and, and I tried, uh, but I failed. And so I swore to myself, uh, I want to learn why did this go wrong? How, how did I fail so that I can do better? And with each successive project that I did, I set out not only to try and make a difference, but to try and understand, uh, why isn't it working?

Why is it working? And to generalise. And so my first papers about this were about how impact works in this environmental domain, which is where I was working. Um, uh, and then working with, uh, with Ana, uh, realised that actually, uh, the lessons here go beyond the environmental domain. There are others who can learn from these, uh, others are asking the same questions.

So we're all going out there trying things, failing sometimes, succeeding sometimes, but not sharing the lessons. What can I do to start trying to share those lessons? Um, we've got an ESRC (Economic and Social Research Council) funded research project. Our pathway to impact at the time said that we would turn our findings into, uh, into a book and a training course so that we could generate impact for our research and impact and Fast Track Impact was born.

Over the years I've focused more and more on the impact training because I've seen that that is how I can make more of a difference than my environmental research, uh, increasingly now. That research is coming of age and I'm getting more and more opportunities to affect change internationally in terms of climate change.

And I have been turning down opportunities for impact because of the impact training. And so I'm now shifting focus and the training is now going to be delivered by colleagues. I'm going to be continuing to develop new courses, new content, um, but refocusing more on the environmental research. Again, that core question that I've had since a child, um, how can I use what time I have on this planet to do as much good as I possibly can?

Um, and I'm still, still learning, still, still, still experimenting. We'll see where this goes. And ultimately, yeah, I would like to actually, to retire early. Um, and, uh, and go into full time Christian work in Africa and follow that original dream. I have no idea what that, what shape that will take, um, but I trust that everything that I've learned on that journey will prepare me for whatever it is that I will be able to do at that point.

Ged Hall: 00:12:25

Yeah, that's, um, that's a really lovely story. And thank you for sharing that so, um, so openly in this interview, which is, you know, really trying to get under the skin of, um, in a good way, as I said, in terms of trying to get everybody out there to understand the person behind the work. If you've, you know, if you've read Mark's books or, you know, some of the literature he's, uh, he's coauthored with lots of people around the world in this space, you know, but I've never met him.

he higher education sector in: 2003

So coming back in in 2003, I've always disagreed really quite fundamentally with the knowledge for knowledge sake argument. you know, I just go, that's not what we're for. We're not just here to develop knowledge. And if you just think, you know, I just fundamentally kind of got into a few scrapes early on in, in kind of the early two thousands, when I kind of said that in various training courses, you know, the intake of breath around the room was sometimes quite forceful.

You almost felt like you were being sucked in to be spat out again. So that was, uh, that was great. It's great to hear the kind of connections there. The other thing was, um, that reflective process and we're kind of realising our failures, we, what's your thoughts on that? We don't, we don't tend to do that well in higher education from my, from my experience of it.

What, what, what's your take on that Mark?

Mark Reed: 00:14:25

I think we tend to do it too well as individuals and not well enough as a community. So I think that I've certainly been paralysed with imposter syndrome through my career. I've suffered from anxiety. It has prevented me from doing many of the things that I should have been doing.

Because failure is something that is baked into the academic system. Whether it's paper rejections, grant rejections. Um, the, the cut and thrust of academic debates, which can turn nasty, um, very quickly. Um, and some of us have thicker skins, thicker skins than others. Um, I've had a lot of, of childhood trauma, um, other things that have happened in my life, which means I've got a relatively thin skin.

And so those reviewer comments go deeper than perhaps they should, um, and have more emotional power perhaps than they should. But then just struggling with believing that I am good enough, that I'm not some kind of fake academic, um, uh, and, and actually just fighting through and, and, and doing day to day.

Um, and I think, uh, what's surprising. Is that, uh, that, that we talk so little about this. Um, uh, there's a couple of trainings that I do where I do an exercise just to, uh, to get people to talk about, uh, positively. How, uh, they deal with imposter syndrome, uh, perfectionism, people pleasing, uh, these really common things that we do.

Uh, and, uh, the reflection I get people to do afterwards is just to ask, how do you feel? Uh, and it's often a transformative experience to simply realise that we are not alone. that every academic has struggled at least at some point in their career with one of those issues, many of us multiple, uh, all the time.

And that is the first step to self compassion, to realise that, you know what, I'm not alone. And I stop beating myself up for feeling like this and realise, yeah, this is understandable. And now I have self compassion. Perhaps I can do the things that I need to be able to take care of myself and believe enough in myself to get on and to do that work.

And so there's some work I think that we all need to do around not being too hard on ourselves and having more self compassion. And yet, uh, when it comes to the, the lessons of impacts that have gone wrong, uh, we don't have the mechanisms to do that reflection as a community. Uh, so Gemma Derrick has been doing some great work, um, she coined this phrase, uh, Grimpact.

She's got some funded research at the moment where she's been collecting case studies of impacts that have gone wrong. So that she can generalise from that, uh, illustrate from that, uh, and, uh, and teach, uh, us all, uh, uh, from across the community. Here's what went wrong, uh, here's what you need to avoid doing, um, and I think we could all do much more of that.

So I, I really applaud her work, but, uh, but I would encourage us all to be more open about our mistakes so that others don't just go and repeat them.

Ged Hall: 00:17:28

Yeah, it's, it's so easy, isn't it? We see those jokes about reviewer two. Um, and, and, and I think we probably all have been reviewer two. So that, um, without, without realising it sometimes that we, we can just, um, you know, maybe barge in with a really good, um, maybe sometimes we joke, reviewer two doesn't come up with particularly great pieces of feedback.

But sometimes the points are important and we don't, we don't frame them in the most compassionate ways. Yeah. Um, and, uh, just. listeners, if you're, if you're interested to hear more about Gemma's work in that space that I interviewed her at the start of that, that funded project. So dive into that. And, um, maybe she might be the, my first person to come back for the third attempt, um, on the podcast when, cause, uh, I've interviewed her twice already.

Um, so I might interview her again when she's closer to, uh, the outputs of, of, of that work. Uh, absolutely. It's a great, it's great. Not just the piece of work going on, but it's a great. focus for a piece of work. Yeah. Um, so in just coming back to all of the training, which hopefully, um, uh, Leeds was, Leeds was instrumental in, in kicking off.

What's the question about research impact that you find hardest to answer? And, and I'm thinking, first of all, when you, when you're constructing your own projects, your own research projects, and then when it's someone else who's asking for advice.

Mark Reed: 00:19:09

Um, so it's a very easy answer to that question because there is one massive question that, uh, that nobody I've yet spoken to can answer, that we all need to answer, which is how on earth do we do the ethics of engagement and impact better, uh, or at all, uh, uh, because we, we, we do research ethics pretty well.

But, uh, unless your engagement and impact is baked into your research project, um, and it does happen with co productive research, um, but it's the minority, then, uh, if this is not about research, it's about ethics and engagement, then your research ethics committee will say this is out of scope. Uh, uh, we've got too much work.

Yeah, we don't have the expertise. This is not research ethics. Uh, they will not look at it. The result then is that we do all this great research, um, and then we do all this engagement and impact around it, and potentially we could be heading towards disaster. Had someone had a look at this, um, and given us a bit of feedback, they may well have been able to point out, that is a really bad idea, and I can predict exactly how badly that's going to wrong, go wrong.

r engagement and impact in REF: 2029

Uh, I've written a blog, um, about what I think is likely to be in that, um, and I think that, um, uh, number one in the queue is that we have some kind of procedure around the ethics of engagement and impact. And if you don't, uh, then, uh, then I think there's a problem. Um, and this is a problem that I pose in every training I'm doing at the moment and I get blank faces.

Uh, what are you going to say when the media comes knocking on your door, um, to tell you how one of your researchers did something with a really vulnerable, marginalised group that was completely inappropriate, that led to terrible things. going wrong? Will you even know that person, uh, let alone that they were going to do the thing that they were going to do?

And what will you say in terms of the guidance they were given, the training, the support they were given, or any kind of safeguards or procedures that were put around that work? Or actually, will you have to admit, yeah, it's a complete free for all. Anyone can do anything they want. And as a leader, I have no idea.

And that's the problem. And, and we're all scratching our heads at the moment trying to solve this.

Ged Hall: 00:21:57

Yeah, it is. It is absolutely really current. And thankfully, there's actually a lot of debate and I'm sure we're getting very far in terms of that debate, but at least the debate is happening across the world.

You know, um, Wade Kelly, for instance, who's I think might be on my list. Yeah, you know, I noticed for the University of Auckland these for their impact seminar series, he's doing a doing a session around that. Unfortunately, it's 11 o'clock at night in the UK. So I'll probably just See the recording hopefully at some point, but yeah, it's, it's great that the conversation is happening, but it, it is something that we need to move, uh, move faster on.

It kind of reminds me in terms of those, um, the Engineering and Physical research, uh, Physical Sciences Research Council brought in their responsible research and innovation, uh, framework as a result of something going wrong. Um, And that was, uh, I won't name the project, I do know the details, but it, you know, that's talked about in the, in the literature that was published by researchers that they, uh, that that research council and the Economics and Social sciences Research Council co funded to, to produce the framework and start that ball rolling.

But it's, it's interesting when you When you talk to people about responsible research innovation, they almost go, it's almost like they look at you and go, Oh, research is responsible. It's kind of like, tell me what's irresponsible research. And it's kind of like, well, If you think a bit more closely, you know, surely you can find situations where you're potentially going to be irresponsible.

Mark Reed: 00:23:43

Yeah, I think the problem is that some of us are aware of the issues and will seek out the resources and the help. And I'd recommend the RRITools website in particular. I really like that. For research, for responsible research and innovation. The problem is that the researchers who have no idea that they need any support or help, they've got their great harebrained idea and they are just going in like a bull in a china shop.

And how do we make sure that we know who those people are ahead of time and that we, uh, we, we at least get them to tell us their harebrained idea.

Ged Hall: 00:24:20

So, um, for you, when I think it's an engagement in, in, Uh, in terms of your own research work, how are you trying to, and who do you look to, to help you do that well in, you know, when you're writing, uh, the next grant application and hopefully doing the work after it being successful?

Mark Reed: 00:24:43

Yeah, well, someone that I've gone to on a regular basis in the past for advice on this is Eric Jensen. He's a Professor at University of Warwick, uh, runs Institute for Methods Innovation. Um, and he's actually now going to be doing the majority of the training for, for FastTrack Impact. Um, we've been collaborating for, for some years, but he is an ethics expert as it happens.

So I've got help from him on various grant applications. Um, whether with him or not, um, and so he was the first person that I went to, uh, with this question. Um, and, um, and instantly he's, uh, he was able to say, uh, yeah, we don't have an answer to this, but there's this rich literature and let's dive into this.

And so together, uh, we then, uh, ran a workshop, um, through my impact culture and community of practice. Um, we had loads of people from across the community internationally were there. You were there. Um, and, um, and, uh, and the, the upshot of that was let's, uh, effectively crowdsource a paper. And so anyone who was at the workshop could offer ideas and co author the paper.

Uh, and, um, and that paper by the time this, this, uh, this, this podcast goes out should hopefully be published. And you'll get a sense of that. We've already published all of the resources that we found on the Fast Track Impact website. And what we came up with there was a set of principles for ethical engagement and impact that should then be able to underpin any guidance and processes and started to make suggestions at the level of things that individual researchers should do.

And that level of what institutions should do, but there's still an unanswered question about the mechanics of that. I don't think there's a one size fits all approach to this. But I do think that, uh, that many of these procedures will work across the sector. And so Eric and I are now in the process of coming up with, uh, a crowd funded project.

Um, so we're going to be approaching universities across the UK, uh, to say, yeah, do you want to? Part fund this, and as part of this, come up with the procedures, trial the procedures, learn from them, and then of course open access, share that with everyone, but get early access to this, um, and, uh, and try and do this together, because, uh, the, the, I think there are going to be answers to this, and now based on our paper, they will hopefully be evidence based answers, um, and I think that this is the kind of question that we should be able, um, to, to solve together. and in so doing do this much more efficiently.

Ged Hall: 00:27:16

Yeah, that's absolutely fascinating. Um, do you, I'm just wondering, um, we've collaborated on rapid evidence assessment work where, um, uh, you know, part of that process is to publish your protocol for the, for the review prior to doing the review. And, and, and in some senses, because it's published, you could get Feedback, et cetera.

Um, possibly anonymous, possibly not anonymous. If the person chooses to do that, do you think there's kind of scope for that kind of level of openness with our, um, with our kind of impact plans and how we might approach engagement?

Mark Reed: 00:27:56

So one of the key problems is how we do this in a way that doesn't become so onerous that it actually ends up stopping people from doing engagement and impact.

Um, and so my instant response to this is real caution. Um, and I think where I'm at with this in terms of the process is that there needs to be a risk based approach. We need to triage this. There are certain Uh, kinds of impacts on say, very controversial issues. We're doing something with genetic modification, for example, instantly high risk, uh, we're going to be working with a particularly marginalised or vulnerable group, instantly high risk.

Uh, and I think that there, there are, there are, there are ways of triaging, uh, engagement and impact, uh, that enable you to focus limited resource support, help on the higher risk. Um, things. My problem is that I engage multiple times per day every day with people in policy, third sector and business around the impact of my, of my environmental work.

If I had to put all of that engagement through some kind of a process, I would just not bother doing the engagement. It would shut me down. It's just not viable. And so there's some kind of sweet spot between trying to have kind of good coverage and support and being inclusive, but also not being so onerous that we shut this whole thing down.

Ged Hall: 00:29:19

Yeah, that's a really good point. I'm just kind of thinking in terms of, um, there's really never any. end point in developing a research culture, it constantly, um, evolves, adapts as new people come in, um, come into the system and, um, as older guys start to leave it. So, you know, that, that will constantly Yeah, yeah.

Well, I am thinking of retirement. Yeah, definitely starting to feel and you've already mentioned it. So I thought I thought I'd get that in as well. So I'm just wondering, in terms of over the next kind of 12 months or so, what you're thinking about in that space in, you know, in your institution, your work and your wider collaborators.

What, you know, beyond beyond that ethics of impact, is there anything else in terms of research culture that you you really want to try in? Alter, change, adapt.

Mark Reed: 00:30:17

Um, well, I mean, I've written an entire book called Impact Culture. Um, I'd encourage you to listen to Google Impact Culture. Go to the book website.

The majority of the book is open access. At the bottom of the page is my impact culture toolkit. There are loads of practical things that we can do to, uh, to create healthy impact cultures. Um, for me personally, um, uh, from January onwards. Um, I'm going to be working on, um, impact strategy for the school that I'm in at Scotland's Rural College.

Um, and what I'm going to be doing is, is following, um, a, a, a, a strategic approach that I do when I'm doing consultancy work, um, for institutions, uh, around how to create an impact strategy for an institution. Um, uh, and I've got a peer review paper on that in the journal Research for All, and, uh, again, an open access, uh, webpage with lots of resources on that, on the Fast Track Impact website.

Um, how far I get, I mean, I don't have an official role, I've just said I want to help and I need to kind of not overstep the mark, so I'll do the kind of early stages, hopefully build trust and, uh, and, and permission, and then maybe we do something a bit deeper, a bit more strategic, but, uh, for me, the, the starting place, um, for, for an impact, uh, strategy.

It has to be from the bottom up if we're going to do impact in a way that is inclusive and that draws people to this, I want to know what are people currently doing? What are the stuff that, what's the stuff that inspires you? And some of the stuff, yeah, I go, I do stuff in my local school, for example.

It's not even really related to my research, but I love doing it. Um, we'll have PhD students and we'll have multi million pound projects with formal impact plans, logic models, theories of change, etc. But just everything. I want to know what's going on. And of course it's quite hard to flush this stuff out to persuade people.

And so I start with a bit of a sell, which is, um, bring what your stuff along to this workshop. And, and I will help you. Uh, to, uh, not only come up with a better impact plan, um, so we'll do some impact planning training, we'll build capacity across the board. But if everyone participates in this, uh, we then can do an exercise where we can see across the school, wherever the unit is, what people are doing.

And we can begin to look for economies of scale and synergies. And so the promise is not to everyone, but for as many people, people as possible, you come to this workshop. Now, you get some new skills, some new ideas, you can do better impact in less time. But actually, this could significantly save you time, because coming out of this, you're now going to be doing joint activities.

You're going to be doing something strategic with other people working in the same space as you. We pool resources, we can do more for less. So that's the sell. And of course now we have all of that data to come up with this kind of bottom up strategy of, great, what are we currently doing? How can we get economies of scale and do what we're currently doing better?

And then if we want to, we can then add on that top down strategy that says, well, here is where we would like to go, but we have that starting place. Here are our key areas of strength. We're going to build on, or here's a massive gap. Why is it that nobody's working in that space? Maybe that's where we're going to build, but you then can take that much more strategic approach.

So whether I get there with SRUC (Scotland's Rural College) or not, I don't know. That's not my remit. Um, but, uh, but I'm angling.

Ged Hall: 00:33:42

Yeah. Yeah. And I've, um. I very much try to encourage that type of behaviour at, uh, at Leeds. So it's just interesting, you know, kind of a lot of that kind of process to kind of go, right, let's, let's try and understand what, what is going on at the ground all the way across the ground that the university covers, um, is unfortunately driven by the need to know what's.

Your long list for the Research Excellence Framework. What are, what are the potential case for these longterm? And I must admit, um, it's been difficult to get the institution to kind of think, okay, how do I take all the data? Because we haven't got enough resource almost to analyze. So that's kind of like been one of the challenges, uh, I face locally in terms of trying to get that kind of behaviour going, but I know in certain faculties, you know, their response was all encompassing, you know, it was kind of like, here's.

everything that is happening in terms of impact. And I think, you know, I think we do need to know that actually to, as you say, to be able to make those connections and do it more efficiently. But if we stop at stage one, we haven't got enough resource to do the analysis, then we'll never get to the. Uh, and we'll never get to the next bit.

Mark Reed: 00:35:08

But it's an important point Ged because I think you send a worrying message if all of your focus all your support is on potential REF impact case study authors Let's be real here. I mean i've just come from a call with someone. Um, who is the uh, The research impact officer for their entire university Um, and, and yeah, you've got limited resources.

You have to focus those resources. You've got to return an investment from impact case studies. So it makes sense. Um, but where we can, I think it is important to be as inclusive as possible because, uh, otherwise, especially early career researchers have the sense of, well, it's not REF-able, therefore it's not valuable, therefore why bother?

And we do know that there is a bias towards mid to senior career researchers as lead authors on impact case studies simply because impact takes time. And if we send a message to our early career researchers that it's not good enough, so why bother? Then, yeah, what does that do in terms of a culture that says we do impact because it's the right thing?

We let impact flourish and blossom. Um, or we do this to get money, and for me that's, that kind of message is, is really damaging. To, to managerialise and instrumentalise impact to that degree is a turn off for, for many of us.

Ged Hall: 00:36:29

Yeah, I mean, we, we have our, um, we're recording this in November 2024 and in the next couple of days we have our, um, uh, our presentations, uh, events for our, uh, it's a biannual, um, Impact Awards.

We don't do it every year, but we, we do it biannually. And it's just interesting to see. I think we do. we've done well in terms of promoting it because I think it's interesting to see slightly how different that list is coming in for the, for the impact awards compared to what comes in for the calls.

What have you got for REF that kind of goes out there? So I think that, you know, maybe that's kind of helping do both. Um, but maybe we need, uh, you know, a bit more than I think internally as a, as an institution. So I guess, um, we're kind of running out of time. I booked you for a certain amount of time and, uh, and it's been great to catch up with you and hear, hear how things go in.

But as I said in the intro, I'm asking everybody to kind of say. Who would you put on the list to be interviewed in this, uh, in this, um, in this series of Impact Heroes? So Mark, um, if you can pick one, that's great, but you know, I don't mind, I don't mind a handful or even two handfuls. Um, but you know, why, why them?

Mark Reed: 00:38:02

I'm going to be two people, if I may, um, uh, who, uh, who both regularly give me attacks of imposter syndrome, um, because, uh, I spend time with them and they challenge my thinking. And so for me, um, yeah, there's an incredible privilege that as an academic, um, you get to reach out to your heroes, uh, because you've read their work, you love what they do, and you can say, what about collaborating with me?

And every now and then they say, yeah, okay, and maybe you can give them something back. So Eric Jensen wrote a book called Doing Real Research. It's a methods textbook. And whenever I work with Eric, he points out methodological flaws, biases, issues, better ways of doing things. And I regularly end up just ripping my methodology up entirely and starting from scratch.

Um, Uh, and um, and, and in both cases there is this, this need for me. Yeah. So I instantly go to this place of, wow, I feel so stupid. I, I feel what that was just, yeah. So obviously wrong. Um, uh, and, and it's about fighting through that, that collapse of confidence to say, you know what, this is great because I'm learning.

Um, and so, uh, so I, I learned so much, uh, and I'm doing so much more rigorous research, uh, since, uh, since working, uh, with, uh, with Eric. Um, and particularly my work on, uh, on impact evaluation. That's his kind of primary discipline. Um, uh, so many better ideas than I've ever had, uh, that I've been able to learn from.

And, uh, and yeah, so challenging and inspiring, uh, in equal measure. Um, but, uh, Ioan Fazey would be, uh, the other. Um, and, uh, and it's that same thing, uh, of I just stand in awe of, of how Ioan thinks. Um, and we have done collaborations through the years. Uh, where we violently disagree with each other. Um, uh, but it's at this kind of conceptual level.

Um, so again, at the level of theory rather than methods. And we'll both come into a project with radically different ways of thinking. Um, uh, and there is this creative tension because again, if I can hold my own and not just have that collapse of confidence of yeah, I'm really stupid and why on earth did I never think about it like that?

And just, it's like, no, but just hold on a minute. This is why I was thinking like this. Uh, at the end of the day, we almost always come to a new way of thinking, which is different to how either of us came into the conversation and better. Uh, I think that's a really rare thing, but his own discipline is, is transform, transformations.

And so he's, he's made a lot of contributions to this literature, but there is this deep and wide literature on transformations, uh, which goes, uh, from, from inner transformation, uh, work. Um, so he's also a shaman in his spare time and, um, and he's done the shamanic work with me, uh, all the way through to transforming entire societies, for example, uh, a net zero type transition.

Um, uh, and, uh, and that depth of thinking, uh, it just inspires the socks off me every time, uh, as well as the integration, uh, of, of worlds, um, uh, of scales, of levels, um, just, yeah, uh, an incredible person, um, uh, and collaborator.

Ged Hall: 00:41:20

Yeah. I must admit, Eric does sometimes make me feel very stupid. Um, but, uh, but the lovely thing, you know, the lovely thing about that is that the way he does it is never reviewer two, is it? It's kind of like, it's so gentle and, and so informed. Uh, it's, yeah, he has a really light touch, but a really powerful touch, I think is a good way of describing it. Now I've never met. Ioan Um, but I know you've worked together a lot, so he's, yeah, that, that's, uh, that's a great one for me in terms of kind of understanding the person behind it, because, you know, I've interacted a little bit with Eric to know he's not reviewer 2 never has been probably never will be, um, But, uh, yeah, so that's that's a great call, and it's lovely in terms of, for me, um, adding in names, um, and getting to understand the people, because, yeah, fundamentally, that's what impact is about, isn't it?

It's getting to understand the people. In the system that you want, you want to affect change and doing it together.

Mark Reed: 00:42:30

Yeah, and I think that the lesson that I've learned from working with Ioan is the impact ultimately is about transformation and it starts with each of us. Something that I've taken into my work more and more through, through the years is that integration of me, the person, that authentic being.

with my work and these inner and outer worlds and the more that we can integrate them and start by transforming ourselves, the more likely we are to not inadvertently become reverting and see good in the outer world.

Ged Hall: 00:43:06

Yeah, it's, it's, it is really important to understand self before trying to understand others and, and certainly try to change self before trying to change others too, is, uh, is equally important.

Um, and, uh, yeah. Jackie Reynolds gave me the chance to talk about that in a recent, uh, a recent webinar that, that she organised so that, you know, that that's been a personal journey over the last year for me in terms of thinking about how I do that in my impact coaching, um, and, uh, and making sure I properly am working with the whole person, not just in that extractive way that I do.

You know, I am a representative of the University of Leeds and I do want Leeds academics to be doing impact both for REF purposes and for the, uh, and for the good it can generate. In fact, it's the other way around, you know, it's, that's the priority, absolutely. Um, so, Mark, it's been. An absolute delight to have, um, time with you.

I think, I think what I'll do, um, is just have a regular, um, meeting request in your diary and just say it's another podcast recording so that we can just have a natter. Because it's just, and, and at least that, that you, you'll feel comfortable in blocking out the time and it, and it's valuable, but it's always an absolute pleasure having a chat with you.

Mark Reed: 00:44:36

The feeling is always mutual. So, so thank you, Ged. And I will look forward to that.

Ged Hall: 00:44:41

Brilliant. And if you'd like to say goodbye to the listeners and, uh, and we'll get on with the rest of our day.

Mark Reed: 00:44:48

Absolutely. Thank you, Ged. Thank you, everyone.

Intro: 00:44:51

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