Welcome to the Research Culture Uncovered podcast, where in every episode we explore what is Research Culture and what should it be. You'll hear thoughts and opinions from a range of contributors to help you change Research Culture into what you want it to be.

Nick Sheppard [: 00:00:04

t Leeds working on the MyFirst: 1000

Nick Sheppard [: 00:00:50

So that was. It's actually how we met quite recently when you were referred to us in the Library and Research Services about sharing data with a lab based in Chicago. I think, as I say, perhaps you can tell us a little bit about that project in a moment. But you're also an associate lecturer at the Open University where you teach psychology and hold you a PhD in cognitive linguistics, I believe. Then if that wasn't enough, you're also managing editor at Cambridge University Press for the journal Linguistics and Cognition. So it does sound like you're quite busy, Kinga. So I'm especially grateful that you've taken the time to come on the podcast and talk to me today. So welcome to Research Culture Uncovered.

Dr. Kinga Patterson [: 00:01:32

Hi, Nick. Hi, everyone. Everyone who's listening, thank you very much. Thanks for having me. It's actually great to be here. And yes, and that is exactly how we met. And we are still in the process of securing the data sharing agreement. I'm sure you know how complicated some of these processes can be, and having to deal with the US system does not make it any simpler.

Dr. Kinga Patterson [: 00:01:53

But it is a learning curve for me because that is my very first data sharing agreement and we all must start somewhere. So I'm excited to see.

Nick Sheppard [: 00:02:03

And what is that project, then? MyFirst1000Days project. So that's what you're working on at Leeds, actually, I think, with Cat Davies, is that right? Who's our Dean for Research Culture.

Dr. Kinga Patterson [: 00:02:13

That is right. That is right, indeed. So Cat Davies and Amanda Waterman are sort of the leads of the work stream that I'm working on for MyFirst1000Days project. And this is quite a big project in itself. So it's a multidisciplinary intervention and it is based on something we refer to as centering parenting, which essentially just means that parents and caregivers who have just had new babies, they receive kind of guided support, education, peer discussions and resources in a small group setting rather than having just individual visits that they would usually get from a health visitor versus midwife versus somebody else. So instead we're bringing kind of a comprehensive package to them in a group setting, so they receive that kind of official scientific information at the same time as receiving a lot of peer support that they may not have been able to get access to. And we have three key strengths to this, and obviously I'm only working on one of them, but the three key strands to this are physical activity, nutrition, and then the one I'm working on is language and cognitive development. And we also have a holistic approach to using and implementing all these types of activities to be inclusive in all ability.

Dr. Kinga Patterson [: 00:03:31

So it's very, very comprehensive, it's very, very holistic. It's very much, very much multi agency and multidisciplinary. And we are just about to begin delivering the sessions in the community next month. So.

Nick Sheppard [: 00:03:46

Well, I can put some links in the show notes and a bit more information about it.

Dr. Kinga Patterson [: 00:03:49

Yeah, that would be fantastic.

Nick Sheppard [: 00:03:51

And that's that project that's brought you to Leeds as a research fellow, is that right?

Dr. Kinga Patterson [: 00:03:54

It has indeed. It has indeed. It's brought me to Leeds, end of last summer, I want to say August or early September sometime, but it's been over six months, so my memory fails me at times and so much happened in the last six months, I suppose. But yes, this project brought me to Leeds and before I was in Newcastle, I was doing sort of my PhD before my masters and all that sort of stuff that you do before you. Before you end up on these big projects.

Nick Sheppard [: 00:04:23

Yeah, well, welcome to Leeds. I suppose you are still new, I think on that basis. We always say, you know, at least a year or even two at Leeds, because it's such a big place, so much going on. And the issue of collaboration, I think is something that you're interested in, perhaps we can talk about. So as a case in point, for example, we just signposted you really, for this data sharing agreement off to colleagues in contracts. And as you say, things are complex to try and figure out stuff like data sharing agreements and all the different things that go into data management, planning and open research more generally.

Nick Sheppard [: 00:04:56

So, yeah, we were, we were talking in that context and then we quickly discovered we had a shared enthusiasm, I think, for open research. So we had a good chat. So I thought, well, I'LL invite you on the podcast and here you are. So perhaps you could just give us...You already referred to your PhD and you've got a background in psychology, I think, which is quite common for colleagues that are interested in open research. I'm always aware that it's very... perhaps psychologists are overrepresented. I don't know if that's fair or true, would you think? But yes, give us a little bit of your academic career to date and where your sort of interest in open research comes from.

Dr. Kinga Patterson [: 00:05:36

Perhaps, perhaps you're right and I think psychology probably is a little bit overrepresented when it comes to open research and reproducibility. But perhaps the reason might be is because we love asking these types of questions and we love going to pointing at things and going well, that could have been done better. So perhaps it is the, it is the nature of psychology itself. But equally psychology in itself portrays a discipline that is very much data driven. It's very, very data driven. So we must have some form of rules and regulations and we must have some guidelines as to how this research being shared, how this research is being adapted, and then how this research is being then publicized. But kind of my, my journey into, into research has, as I said, began with my masters, I suppose I, before I came back to, to do my masters, I was working in sort of adult education needs and then I was working in counseling through Covid. So I have quite a varied background.

Dr. Kinga Patterson [: 00:06:45

And you know, I have been very, very lucky because throughout my PhD and after my PhD as well, I've had the opportunity to be involved in a variety of different projects that have something to do with psychology, something to do with linguistics, and lots of things in between. So, you know, I've done most of my work is on language acquisition and early language development and literacy development. And I'm, I'm genuinely, genuinely very interested in looking at how literacy impacts social and educational sort of life outcomes in general. We know that without literacy there's no digital literacy. We know that without literacy there's no health literacy. So I'm very, very interested in those types of connections and that is usually what I, what I work on. But alongside this, I worked a lot with different neurodiversities. I've been involved in developing free access to quality mental health support platforms.

Dr. Kinga Patterson [: 00:07:43

I worked on translations of eyewitness accounts. I work with the Holocaust Educational Trust, large language model developments, EDI initiatives. So a lot. So I suppose my journey into research was not really linear. I'm not sure anybody's Journey into research and open research is actually linear, but I suppose along the way I have picked up different things from different places, and I ended up here.

Nick Sheppard [: 00:08:11

Well, I'm just thinking while you're talking there, I'll call out to my colleague, Ruth Winden. I'm sure she's listening, aren't you, Ruth? Because she's a careers advisor and we've done a couple of podcasts together, and it's always interesting. I was saying to you before, you know, in terms of that collaborative aspect, and though Ruth and I work in very different areas, they cross over, you know, and things like people's careers and how they've got into their research careers or how they may look at careers elsewhere. And open research is a good example of that, I think, that underpins people's careers sometimes and develops an interest as they go through their academic career. So what, particularly around open research, sort of interests you, I suppose, and how important is open practice to you?

Dr. Kinga Patterson [: 00:08:57

I think when it comes to open research and the most recent conversations I've been having about open research and reproducibility and transparency is that it's not black and white. And we'd often like to believe that it is black and white, that it's like the core principle of science. This is something that we all must do to the fullest extent. And, you know, we must be able to replicate things and we must be transparent about absolutely everything. But the reality is that as much as we'd like this to be true, that the must, we must have an understanding that this is a spectrum as much as everything else in research, that open research practices are on the spectrum. Some research is much easier to reproduce than others, and that's okay. And some research is very difficult to reproduce. We know that very well.

Dr. Kinga Patterson [: 00:09:50

But we must be part of the conversation as to how the research is being produced, even if we are unable to provide completely open research practices at every single step. You know, it might be. You might have ethical limitations, you might have issues with reproducibility in terms of, you know, when the research was conducted, something was an accepted practice and it isn't anymore. So we have. We do have a lot of limitations that we must consider, but we must be part of the conversation about how we can make research as open as possible and just be honest and clear about what we are doing.

Nick Sheppard [: 00:10:37

Yeah, and one of the challenges I've mentioned to you for me, in my role, I suppose, is trying to, because I'm a layperson, essentially, you know, and trying to liaise with colleagues in different disciplines and trying to help them to be more open. But it just, just when you were talking then it just made me think, you know, this spectrum thing, you don't. It's not all or nothing, is it? I suppose that is the the message?

Dr. Kinga Patterson [: 00:11:01

Different disciplines must treat open research differently, of course, even within psychology, which is generally my area, and I imagine this would be the same in medical research, engineering, law, any of the discipline. I suppose that you, you, you're practicing open research practices in. There has to be an understanding of the parameters of that discipline and then the parameters of your own research. You know, even in my own studies, I will have sort of different limitations on a project that works with newborn babies and different limitations and projects that work with AI and different limitations on projects that are somewhere in between. So I suppose it's true. So for colleagues who are considering open research practices, are not sure about open research practices, or don't know anything about open research practices, I would genuinely recommend that just dip your toe. Just dip your toe into one of the bits. Just, you know, maybe write a registered report just for once and see how you feel about it.

Dr. Kinga Patterson [: 00:12:07

Maybe go to one of the conferences, maybe learn about how open access works really and what the benefits of that is. Maybe do something different, maybe do something collaborative and perhaps make the outputs accessible to more people than you normally would. So if you're not sure, dip your toe because yeah, as we've said, research, open research is on a spectrum. It's not yes or no, and it's not a be all and end all. But if you can be part of the community, then you're already doing something that you haven't been doing before.

Nick Sheppard [: 00:12:43

And that's an interesting word, isn't it? An important word, I think community and collaboration, because they are, you know, fundamental. I think to me certainly that collaborative aspect we've already referred to, but you've just referred to there a couple of specific practices that I've talked about a little bit on this podcast before. So registered reports and pre registration is related. I think it's a similar practice. I'm always. I still get a little bit confused because registered reports a bit more formal than a pre registration, is that right?

Dr. Kinga Patterson [: 00:13:13

So I do think the two things are very much linked, but usually pre registration just means that you kind of register your intent to commit to a specific methodology, a specific study. So then you would use something like the Open Science Framework, the osf, which we will know and love very, very much. You might use something like the OSF to sort of host your project. So you can host this project there and you know, the registered report form part of it is when you get feedback from other academics before carrying this out.

Nick Sheppard [: 00:13:55

Well, and that's because we touched on this, because I think you've been trying to introduce that. Is that right? As you're in your role as managing editor, is that the correct title for your role at the Journal of Language and Cognition?

Dr. Kinga Patterson [: 00:14:06

It can be, it can be, it can be managing editor, journal manager. I think essentially I am your go to person, so at the journal. So it just, it just sort of means that I do all the editorial and administrative support for the editor in chief. I sort of manage the group of general and special editors that we have and all the review editors. What else? I manage the online systems that you would submit to your article to. So I'm pretty sure everyone will be familiar with the platforms like ScholarOne and all of these where you kind of upload your submission to. So I will manage those submissions on the system.

Nick Sheppard [: 00:14:48

Peer review, do you organize peer review? Is that part of your role?

Dr. Kinga Patterson [: 00:14:52

So I organize the initial stages. So usually I'm not sure how familiar everybody is with peer review in terms of each of the, the biggest stages in it, but there's usually a stage after submission when we kind of quality check and check the submissions for, you know, relevance topic, see if we have expertise on the panel, on the, on the review panel. So that is what happens. You would submit your article and then it comes to your journal manager or managing editor, somebody like me, and I will read your article. I will read every article that is being submitted and then my job is to manage this in the form of finding the relevant editor who will then take this on and then carry on with inviting the reviewers for the actual review itself.

Nick Sheppard [: 00:15:47

But this is, it's fascinating for me because, you know, working in a library, obviously we do work with publishers, but confess, I haven't, I suppose, spoken to that many colleagues who are on the other side of the fence, as it were, I suppose. So how did you get into journal editing? Is that something you've been doing for a while?

Dr. Kinga Patterson [: 00:16:06

I think, if memory serves me right, I joined Lang and cog in 2021, so it's coming up to four years. Wow, okay. It has been a long time and I kind of fell into it as you, as you often do, into some of the things that you don't specifically train for. But I sort of fell into it through knowing some people in the. On the panel and being colleagues with some others and Then I kind of just fell into the role, I suppose, and haven't left. So it must be, it must be going well. I've just realized it's been four years. You've actually surprised me, like majorly surprised me of how long it's been.

Nick Sheppard [: 00:16:52

And you mentioned peer review and just talking about Registered Reports. Did you, I think, did you mention to me that you were trying to introduce Registered Reports to the journal? Is that something that the Journal of Language Recognition does?

Dr. Kinga Patterson [: 00:17:04

Yes. So we've introduced Registered Reports last summer and we'd love to get some more submissions for Registered Reports. It's one of the initiatives that we've launched when we flipped completely Gold Open Access as well. So this journal is now fully Open Access and we follow the Gold Open Access model under the CC license as you normally would. So Registered Reports are just one of the initiatives that we've launched to ensure that we can attract some of the, you know, some more submissions. But equally we'd like to attract more submissions from ECRs because we often find in publishing that many of the publications come from those who are already seasoned in publishing and have a good track record. But we genuinely would love to have more ECR submitting to us. We have many, many initiatives that can support them.

Dr. Kinga Patterson [: 00:18:02

We have many support links on our website to either help with structuring, proofreading or generally looking through the, the editorial board to finding who they might, if there's somebody on the board that their work might resonate with. We also have different funding routes which have been designed to ensure that everybody who submits, irrespective of their circumstances or which country they're submitting from, can publish in the Journal. So this is great, especially for those who have not published with kind of what is, I suppose, perceived as a prestigious institution. Cambridge University Press is often perceived as a very prestigious institution and they can enjoy the benefits of Gold Open Access as well. So we have over 170 transformative agreements across the world. We have a Equity Initiative Fund, we have a Research4Life scheme and we can offer full waivers as well. So if you don't come under any of these categories or you're not affiliated with any institutions, you can apply for a full waiver or a partial or a full waiver of the fees. And it can be requested by any author at any point in the process.

Dr. Kinga Patterson [: 00:19:19

It can be requested before or after acceptance and it is assessed on a case by case basis. But I don't know of one that's been rejected yet.

Nick Sheppard [: 00:19:29

Right, that's really interesting. So because that's often a concern, I think, about the gold model of open access, how it might impact on knowledge equity and the fact that colleagues in the Global south, for example, or early career researchers that might not have access to funding may not actually be able to publish. So that's really interesting to hear that initiative. And is uptake good? Do you get a lot of applications through that sort of route?

Dr. Kinga Patterson [: 00:19:51

Yes, I mean, I'm not responsible, I'm not on the team that's responsible for author contracts there. But as far as I know that there is quite a bit of uptake and we have got a lot of submissions, a lot more submissions, either from the global south or Far East. So we have a lot more submissions outside of what you would refer to the traditional sort of areas. So outside of the uk, outside of the us, outside of kind of mainland Europe. So you have a lot more submissions coming through to us, which is great to see, but we'd love to see much more registered reports. We've only had a handful and we'd just love to see them. And the best thing about registered reports, I think, is that if you get a principle in acceptance, which is what we refer to it, if you're being accepted at the first stage, so you know, registered reports or two stage review process, because you obviously haven't done your research yet. So at stage one, your methodology is being reviewed and then you go off and then you kind of collect your data, do your study, whatever you're doing, write it up and then in stage two, you submit the full article.

Dr. Kinga Patterson [: 00:20:53

So. Well, actually there's two good things about this. The first good thing about this is that you'll get two publications to your name. So it is excellent for ECRs just putting that out there again. And second of all, why it's excellent is because when you get a decision of acceptance in principle. So if you get a decision of acceptance at stage one, regardless of what your results are, you will get a publication. So you kind of avoid that publication bias of not publishing something because you don't have significance, for example, which still happens very often, unfortunately, even though we do accept no results anyway. We always have.

Dr. Kinga Patterson [: 00:21:31

It's always been something that we've accepted no results, regardless of as long as the methodology was robust and kind of the, the manuscript was of a great quality and then we've always accepted null results. But yeah, thank you.

Nick Sheppard [: 00:21:48

Yeah, no, that's really interesting as well because that speaks to some of the conversations that I'm having, you know, around research culture, open research, adding all results. And is it called the file draw problem? I think I've heard it referred to as.

Dr. Kinga Patterson [: 00:21:57

Well, yeah.

Nick Sheppard [: 00:21:59

And publishing null results. And that's one of the benefits of registered reports. So why do you think you're not getting many? Is that because people are unaware of how it works or they're just. They perceive it as more work?

Dr. Kinga Patterson [: 00:22:14

Maybe, I don't know, but it's the, it is possible.

It's kind of difficult to, to know. I suppose we would have to do some research on that as well. I'm pretty sure there's some research coming in there. In fact, we are planning a collaboration with Tier 2, but I can't say very much about that because we're still in the, the starting stages of that to kind of track how some of the initiatives are working. But I think it may be because I don't think registered reports are very much an accepted practice in many institutions yet, although there are some institutions that are teaching how to do this now and are requiring PhD students, for example, to pre register their planned studies. Anyway, it is not kind of a widespread practice yet, which is what we would like to see. So because this is not a widespread practice and we are sort of aiming to get more ECR submissions, we sort of need to raise the profile of registered reports a little bit more, I think.

Nick Sheppard [: 00:23:15

Yeah, well, it's certainly something that we're aware of here at Leeds and I've already, as I say, had conversations with other colleagues, so just name check my colleague, Dr. Kelly Lloyd, who was one of the early guests on the podcast and she's, she's the person that's taught me really, I think, about pre registration and registered reports. And she was saying that same thing actually, that. Well, her perspective, just to see if you agree, was that perhaps people do think that it's more work, but actually she referred to it as top loading, front loading. So you're actually doing the same work, you're just doing it at a different stage in the process and then you can adapt what you've already done for the registered report for the actual article, which you say has already been accepted in principle.

Dr. Kinga Patterson [: 00:23:59

Yeah, I have to agree. I think it could come across as perhaps doing more work. But I have been teaching research methods for a good number of years now and I was always under the ethos that students should be taught how to carry out research effectively and in a robust way from the start. So there is nothing new for you to do, I suppose you just need to know what you're doing exactly and how you're doing it. So if you know that anyway, then there isn't really any extra work there for you. As you and Kelly have put it, you're just sort of front loading what you're doing.

Nick Sheppard [: 00:24:41

Yeah. And it's, it's about cultural change, isn't it? And that's what we're trying to do is research. Culture is like anything takes a little bit of time to. Time to change. Dare I ask about things like responsible metrics? Is that something you think about the Journal in terms of journal impact factor and the Declaration of Research Assessment? DORA. I don't know if you're a signatory or whatever. I'm your way. I'm kind of putting you on the spot with that at the moment. I don't know if you have any thoughts on that kind of thing.

Dr. Kinga Patterson [: 00:25:12

So I'm not a signatory. No. But we do have an impact factor. We have two year and five year impact factors. I think it's a 2.0 at the moment. But the, the journal was originally born out of, and this was set up by a previous editorial board was born out of the need to have, you know, provide access to those who don't necessarily have traditional means of accessing publications. So I think we're doing well with that. And I think although impact factors and all these metrics can be important, I do think that sometimes there is a over reliance on them and they can be obscuring challenges.

Dr. Kinga Patterson [: 00:26:00

And the higher the impact factor can often also mean longer review periods and higher workloads for those involved. So, yeah, of course it's great if you get a manuscript into somewhere with a fantastic impact factor, it looks great on you. I mean, this is academic currency. We're talking about. This is why I refer to it when I sort of speak about this, when I teach about. This is. We're talking about currency here. It's our money, isn't it? It's how we get money.

Dr. Kinga Patterson [: 00:26:34

It's how we secure money. It's how, it's how institutions are sort of getting. What's the, what's the word younguns use? Clout. This is, it's, it's about, it's about currency and clout, isn't it? It's a double say. But as always, it's the same with league tables. It's the same with impact factors. I think it's great if it serves the purposes that you want to. It serves your purposes and serves your goals.

Dr. Kinga Patterson [: 00:27:02

But it isn't always the most important factor.

Nick Sheppard [: 00:27:07

Well, no, it's an interesting.

Dr. Kinga Patterson [: 00:27:09

What do you think?

Nick Sheppard [: 00:27:10

Well, it's an interesting conversation to have because it's, I mean, just to be clear, I suppose we in the library and from a research culture perspective, we're wary, I think it's fair to say, of impact factor and it's, as you say, it's still the currency, but it's very easy to sort of say it shouldn't matter, you know, it shouldn't be used as a proxy for research quality, which it often is. Nevertheless, as you say it is and it's, it's important for early career researchers, potentially. If you could get an article in that very high impact journal, then that's going to do your career lots of good, whether or not that's the right metrics to be using, etc. So it's a complex area that we're talking about a lot as a sector, as a university. So I suppose I'm interested, from your perspective as a managing editor, just what conversations might be around that and obviously you want to. You've got the reputation of your journal.

Dr. Kinga Patterson [: 00:28:10

And I'd love to see an alternative, like a viable alternative. A lot of the conversations we've been having recently is what would be a viable alternative. So how would we measure quality then? How would we measure something as complex as impact and sort of quality and all that? So if we don't have impact factor and sort of all these other metrics that we currently are running, then what would be an alternative that would be acceptable, that would sort of feel like something that you would be less wary about, I suppose. But I, I think that is a conversation that needs to be had. But I do think that will come along with the culture change that I think we're experiencing currently and that we're going through currently.

Nick Sheppard [: 00:28:58

Yeah, yeah. I mean, one thing that's cropped up in my conversations with colleagues here at Leeds a lot is what's referred to as bibliodiversity. You know that the journal article isn't the only or even the main vehicle necessarily. I mean, we haven't even talked about data and underlying data and preprints. And are they all things that your journal support?

Dr. Kinga Patterson [: 00:29:21

Yeah, absolutely, definitely. So we always, we do require registration, either pre registration or at least registration at the OSF once the manuscript is submitted, that we require for them to provide what we refer to as a view only link to their repositories, to require them to place the data, their analysis process and sort of all of this necessary, all the necessary steps they've done to place them into Repository like the OSF. The OSF are going to love me. I've said it about seven times already and I'll probably say another 17. But yeah, so we required them to place the information into the OSF somewhere where we could share that with the, with the editors and the reviewers. But of course we operate a double blind policy, so we require this to be anonymous to start. But the reason for this is because once the manuscript gets accepted, then obviously the anonymity will be lifted and then they don't just have a journal article out there, but they'll also have a first view article which is viewable immediately, immediately on acceptance. And they'll also have a registration.

Dr. Kinga Patterson [: 00:30:34

So you have several outputs almost immediately. And if you don't get accepted for whatever reason or you get revisions or whatever, or we suggest that you perhaps find a different venue, then you still have a registration. So then you still have some form of an output. So again, this is kind of, this is like a multi pronged attack, like ninja attack is what I like to, what I like to call it that, that we're kind of making you have different outputs from the outset without you knowing it. So it's kind of a stealthy way of trying to encourage people to, to focus on not just the final kind of big journal article, but kind of the process that is involved at every step of the way. So.

Nick Sheppard [: 00:31:20

Well, now this is really interesting just to hear from your perspective as managing to journal, but I suppose just to think, what other ways can colleagues perhaps get involved with open research? Are there's lots of communities out there, I think, to get involved? Are there any in particular that you might point people towards?

Dr. Kinga Patterson [: 00:31:39

There are a lot of communities out there and the one that I'm really trying to get into, like genuinely, really heavily trying to get into is FORRT. So FORRT is Framework for Open and Reproducible Research Training. Teaching? Training, I think. Yeah, Framework for Open and Reproducible Research Training. So it's a community that's designed to help researchers, but equally not just researcher and academics, but also educators. So you know, in academia we often share these hats. So we have a researcher hat and an educator hat. Unless you can, you know, bringing enough money to buy all your time back from the institutions.

Dr. Kinga Patterson [: 00:32:24

We have both of these things and they promote, as you said, open, transparent, reproducible science and focus on making educational resources available and accessible openly so that we can use these resources to actually teach with. So their key goals is to tackle challenges like updating your curriculum, dealing with uncertainty and uncertainty in research methods, and how research is being taught, what outcomes are being sort of assessed when it comes to research and open research. And there's various ways that they do this. So if anybody's interested, I can highly recommend looking up thought and looking up maybe what I think they call it the replication hub. But you might be able to correct this, you might have the link for this, etc.

Nick Sheppard [: 00:33:12

Yeah, I am aware of thought and I will put the link in the show.

Dr. Kinga Patterson [: 00:33:16

Yeah, and it's called, it's called FRED, which is why I remember this replication...

Nick Sheppard [: 00:33:21

I'm just looking now.

Dr. Kinga Patterson [: 00:33:24

They have a replication database which they call FRED, which I really like actually. And it's a platform where you can explore one of the biggest collections of original replication research findings. So this can be used as either you as a researcher, so using original studies, using the replication studies, or as an educator. So if you're teaching research methods modules, if you're teaching about research practices, then you can sort of summarize and search these replication findings. You can get students to look at the factors affecting research reproducibility across a variety of different article types and disciplines. You can look at different reference lists, you can look at, you know, organizing research. So there's a variety of things you can do with phred and I really like to use it as a teaching tool. And then if you're not quite there yet, if you're not quite at the point where you think you could probably comfortably or confidently teach about open research practices yet in your, in your educator, in your educator hat, then they also provide you with like an E learning platform.

Dr. Kinga Patterson [: 00:34:33

And I'm now blowing their horn, so hopefully somebody will find me after this. But they also provide an elearning platform which helps you get to the point where you feel confident and comfortable to teach about open research practices. It can be time consuming to learn about all this stuff. And the reason why they've done it this way, it's a form of a nexus. So it connects the dots for you. So it makes it easier to adopt open science practices. We spoke about it at the beginning that it's not a be all and end all. It's not a yes or no, it's not a black and white thing, it's a spectrum.

Dr. Kinga Patterson [: 00:35:07

So the way they've set this out is it's really helpful, it's really user friendly. So if you just want to dip your toe in, you can do. But equally, if you dip your toe in, you usually find yourself quite, quite deep down in the rabbit hole. It makes it very easy to do that can help you learn about the different practices, but it can equally give you lesson plans. So if you think you are ready to kind of bring this into one of your sessions, it can provide you with ready made lesson plans and glossaries, their self assessment tools so you can check your own understanding. I quite like those. You can use them in your teaching as well. But essentially it's, it just makes things easier for you to learn about open, open research and sort of reproducibility and transparency.

Dr. Kinga Patterson [: 00:35:48

So yeah, definitely, that's great.

Nick Sheppard [: 00:35:50

Yeah, I mean I was aware of four and I have spoken about it with colleagues before, so on this podcast in fact with Dr. Madeleine Pownall I know is heavily involved with FORRT and she's really interested actually as we are, you know, been beginning to explore trying to incorporate research into the undergraduate curriculum because that's, that's something I've heard, I don't know if you'd agree or not that very often people get to their PhD and they haven't really encountered much of this stuff beforehand. So we need to try and embed it earlier in the process. Do you teach undergraduates at the Open University?

Dr. Kinga Patterson [: 00:36:24

Yes, I teach both undergraduates and then postgraduates as well. And I can't agree more. I absolutely, I absolutely am behind every single initiative that sort of works on the introducing it. The earlier the better. So we always, we always say this about when, well, I say this about when children learn languages that the more, the more exposure they get to language earlier on the, the better it is. I feel the same way about this. You know, the more exposure you get to open research practices, the earlier in your career, the earlier in your studies, the more embedded it's going to be in all of the, all of your future practices. So if we can get undergraduates to sort of understand this as one of the pinnacles of research practices, so one of the core principles, then we will have a much easier time by the time they get to the PhD if we require pre registrations from them and registered reports from them and we require them to have different outputs other than just a journal article.

Dr. Kinga Patterson [: 00:37:25

So I think definitely, definitely agree with that.

Nick Sheppard [: 00:37:30

Yeah, well, and just a quick plug for our open research hub which I think I mentioned to us, I'm pretty sure thoughts actually link from that as well. So this is part of, you know, my job at Leeds, trying to raise awareness of open research practices and to collaborate with colleagues across the university to help understand what they are in different practices etc. So no thanks, Kinga. That's been a really sort of thorough deep dive into your career and all your sort of interests in, in different areas. And as I say, you're clearly very busy. So how many jobs have you got? Three, four? Multiple jobs. Anyway, you're busy.

Dr. Kinga Patterson [: 00:38:06

I am, I am busy, but I like it this way. I, I love having different hats on. I love being involved in different projects and I'm really hoping Ford will actually find that. My email in when I'm asking for a collaboration somewhere in there.

Nick Sheppard [: 00:38:23

So if you're listening. But we'll tag them when we put this out online. We'll tag them on, on social media.

Dr. Kinga Patterson [: 00:38:29

Interested in what they're doing at the minute is. What they're doing at the minute is they're creating a new open access journal, a diamond open access one, in fact. But they're holding a series of consultations online in the next few months so that they're making the whole, the process public. So, you know when you're sort of building a journal, when you're kind of coming up with the practices and everything and the quality control, the scope and all of that. So they're making all these discussions public. So you can come along as an acr, you can come along as somebody who might be underrepresented, you can come along as someone who wants to learn about open research practices and see how commercial interests and obviously open research practices and how they, how they come together and how this amalgamates in a creation of a journal. So very exciting indeed.

Nick Sheppard [: 00:39:21

Yeah, no, I'll certainly look into that more myself. I had to say I was aware, but I think there might be new stuff on the website since I last looked. So, no, thanks very much for flagging that up and maybe we could and should collaborate with them all with. As a university, as a library or as a university as well. So, yeah, thank you very much for that and thank you for your time, Kinga, and I'll let you go and do one of your other jobs. I'm not sure what you're busy with today, but thanks for your time and we'll speak again. Thank you.

Dr. Kinga Patterson [: 00:39:48

Thanks, Nick. Thank you for having me and thanks for listening, everyone.

Nick Sheppard [: 00:39:52

Thanks. Bye. Bye.