(Episode 113) Creating Space for Researchers to Be Heard

Intro / outro [: 00:00:04

Welcome to the Research Culture Uncovered podcast, where in every episode we explore what is research culture and what should it be. You'll hear thoughts and opinions from a range of contributors to help you change research culture into what you want it to be.

Heledd Jarosz Griffiths [: 00:00:23

Welcome to the Research Culture Uncovered podcast. I'm Helen, a researcher development advisor at the University of Leeds and I'm joined today by my co host Ruth, a Careers with Research consultant. We're both part of the Researcher Development and Culture team within the Organisational Development and Professional Learning, or ODNPL for short. In today's episode, we're diving into a topic that sits at the heart of what we do. Creating space for researchers to be heard. It's something that Ruth and I are both deeply passionate about. Helping researchers reflect, feel valued and connect with their purpose beyond the day to day pressures of academic life. Ruth, you've been at Leeds for about four years now, but your experience with research spans, dare I say, decades.

Heledd Jarosz Griffiths [: 00:01:12

But what have you noticed about culture and how researchers are or aren't heard within it?

Ruth [: 00:01:20

Yeah, because I've been doing this for quite a while and it's exciting now, as it was back then, is, you know, helping researchers really get the space to reflect and make sense of their lives and their careers and you know, also build that confidence to really ask for what they need. And I do see a difference actually. I think over the years we give researchers more and more opportunity actually to get heard, which is obviously wonderful news and I'm very surprised, supportive of that. So not just, you know, in the work that unite with hell is when we work in a one to one or workshops, webinars, but also in across the university when we look at so many academics are so supportive of researchers these days and really want to create that connection and really want to create that positive research culture. And when you look at, you know, from our ECR action groups, you know, the newsletter where we invite postdocs in and you know, the fellows, we have a lot of ways to communicate with them and engage with them and give them space to be heard in an official capacity, you know, also on steering groups or, you know, postdoc associations. So I think there is, there has been a shift and I think it's becoming better and better. But there's still a lot to do, isn't there?

Heledd Jarosz Griffiths [: 00:02:39

Yeah, absolutely, I think, yeah, you're absolutely right. There has been a huge shift and I've really seen over the last few years when I think and reflect back on my own kind of work as a researcher, as a Postdoc, as a postdoc for 14 years and at the time, you know, I felt valued for my outputs, things like papers, grants, funding application, other funding applications, but not really as a person so much, not necessarily within the academic environment. The time that I felt the most empowered, I think as a researcher was when I did public engagement events, when I went out and spoke with the, with the public, with, when I represented Alzheimer's Research UK for some of their events. And that's where I felt more seen and more heard and more valued. I didn't feel that same kind of value within the institution, which is something that I think is changing and there's a lot of movement in the sector, but I do still think we've got a long way to go and things that we're doing in terms of the courses that we run I think are a huge part of that. And now with my kind of career transition as a researcher developer is, you know, it's enabling being part of that journey and helping researchers feel more heard. And I'll kind of reflect just quickly on the, when I did my career transition and it was doing Career Architect, which you have run at Leeds for a number of years, that really enabled me to kind of recognize my values, to explore my strengths and to really see what my skills were. And it's so important to create that space for researchers to kind of reflect on who they are, not just within the scope of their research, but also as people.

Heledd Jarosz Griffiths [: 00:04:29

So can you share a moment when you saw someone shift once they genuinely felt listened to in any of the interactions you had with researchers?

Ruth [: 00:04:39

Yeah, I'll give you an example from Career Architect because, you know, this is our six month program where, where we have the absolute pleasure to work with researchers very extensively and helping them understand more about themselves and, you know, their strengths and their values and what they're passionate about, their interests and then help them really find new opportunities. And for me, the wonderful thing is I've done it for many, many years. I know how people come in, you know, they are worried, it feels scary, they often don't know who I am. You know, they don't know what to expect and, and they come with a lot of apprehension and often also real questions about themselves. And you know, and let's be honest, you know, very low confidence because they don't really get so much positive feedback. And when they think of, you know, having that transition, you know, we always shrink a little bit when we think of a big new challenge coming our way, you know, and, and working with these People really giving the space and also, you know, the being non judgmental and welcoming them in the way that they are and being reassuring and making them feel safe and give them space to say what they need to say. I think that creates a certain atmosphere that you can just see it in their faces and their bodies and then just relax and they think, wow, you know, I'm not the only one. We're all here in a similar situation.

Ruth [: 00:06:05

And then I can really start to work with them because for me, you know, giving that confidential space space feeling really safe and agreeing our boundaries, you know, that we don't share what we discuss with other people so they can really open up, you know, and, and that is something that's for me, really, really important. That's a space giving piece. And when you give our wonderful, talented, intelligent, motivated colleagues that space, they grab it with both hands. You are part of yourself. Hellas you know, it. It is. And it's easier for me because I'm not here as a research leader. Yeah, I'm.

Ruth [: 00:06:41

Who cares deeply about them as human beings and their professional development. So I come in from a more neutral space, I guess. You know, my expectation is that they engage with me, you know, that they make the most of the opportunity and that they really open up and work on themselves so that I can help them move forward. That's my expectation. But I'm not questioning their researcher skills or their technical skills or anything like that. You know, I welcome them in as human beings. I don't even think of them as researchers in the first place. You know, for me, they are human beings, work together and help you through that transition and help you move forward, you know, and then at the end when they then say, gosh, you know, I feel so confident now, you know, for me, that is, that is when I recognize they've had the space and they've really shown their true colors and what they're able to do and capable of, you know, that's for me, that's a proper space giving, but it's an investment, you know, but they respond so beautifully.

Ruth [: 00:07:38

So it's a good investment that we're making here.

Heledd Jarosz Griffiths [: 00:07:41

Yeah, absolutely. I think I've definitely seen firsthand that shift in confidence as well after running the program with you this year. And you know, often we find maybe with the workshops that we do, people come along and we see they take on board some of the kind of advice or tools that we give them, but then actually what do they do when they take them away and does it then get lost again? So, so programmes like the longer programs does give you that space to be able to do that longer term. I think when the shorter kind of programs it does, then it's dependent on you as a person. You have to fully engage in making things happen for yourself.

Ruth [: 00:08:22

Bring something in here. Because even on a short programs, you can really make a difference by giving people space. Can I just bring in an example? So I ran a webinar on CVs a couple of months ago and had really big audience. I think we had 50 people on there. And quite early on I had a PGR ask a question and she was in the arts and humanities and she asked the question about, you know, the atmosphere in the UK is really hostile at the moment for anyone who doesn't. That was her feeling. You know, anyone who does arts and humanities and research, you know, we're under pressure, you know, we're being called Mickey Mouse degrees and all these things. And she felt really, really, really low and she chose that webinar to ask that question from under 50 people.

Ruth [: 00:09:14

And she said, I feel so low, I feel so unappreciated with my research. What's the point of it all? And then, you know, as a facilitator, and as a facilitator, you really have to then split second, second to decide this is not really part of our conversations here. Do you park it? Do you move on? Do you give that person space? And I just felt, actually I thought this person in front of 50 people plucks up the courage to say something very personal. And she said it in a way that it was very obvious she was not in a good place. And I thought, okay, Ruth Winden, you're not parking this. So I said to everyone, you know what, let's just discuss. And we had about 10 minutes conversation about it. And you know, I am older, I have the hindsight, you know, I've been through ups and downs in the economy, in political landscape, in higher education.

Ruth [: 00:10:02

I bring a slightly more mature perspective, I guess, you know. And so we're having a really good conversation about this in the webinar that was not even about that as a topic. Everyone was really contributing and sending lovely things in the chat and she was so positive afterwards. And then I said, okay, let's get back to our topic. And I'm really glad we took the time. Three hours after the webinar, I get the most unbelievable email full of, you know, gratitude that someone actually took the time to listen. And she felt so heard and, and I was so glad that I Took that moment because, you know, there's something in your facility head going on. You know, I've got a program I need to deliver, you know, have certain learning outcomes.

Ruth [: 00:10:46

You know, I've said specific amount of time here. Do we really have time for it? And I thought, no, no, no. Sometimes you just have to stop and give people a space and respond. I didn't want to fob her off. And everyone was so engaged. And she got a lot of support from the other participants, too, you know, because I think it is easier if you're doing science and technology than if you're doing arts and humanities at the moment, you know, because there's so many cuts and, you know, there's so many. Yes, we have to do so much justification for what we do. And she really felt it.

Ruth [: 00:11:17

But I also couldn't quite, you know, stop wondering, why does she have to come on a webinar with a careers professional? Where is her community? You know, where are her supervisors? You know, that's. I would have hoped that they have those conversations there, too.

Heledd Jarosz Griffiths [: 00:11:34

I think that's incredibly courageous of her to be so vulnerable within that space. And I imagine on that webinar, she made a difference to a lot of people, not just her. I think it takes, you know, just one person to actually enable other people to feel heard as well, because that gave an opportunity then for you to guide a discussion and to be open with her as well, to allow that conversation to happen. And because other people were so supportive, other people are feeling the same. And I think a lot of people don't realize that you have the imposter syndrome. You sat within your space feeling that you're not doing a good job when actually the person sat next to you is feeling exactly the same. And I think it all really comes down to that. The communication piece and also that feeling of being heard within your community.

Heledd Jarosz Griffiths [: 00:12:26

And, you know, it really boils down to, if we bring in the leads, values, collaboration, compassion, integrity and inclusivity. It's, you know, living out some of these values so that people feel comfortable and feel that they belong within the community so they can actually voice the way that they're feeling. And that it isn't isolated within a. A webinar as. As you've described here, but more, you know, within the community that they're in.

Ruth [: 00:13:00

And, you know, how passionate I am about these values. They really speak to me, and I bring them into our work a lot because I want to normalize conversations about these values. And that's often where we get a Lot of pushback, don't we? Because not everyone feels that these values are being lived. And this is, again, about being heard, because I want to open the space for us and have those conversations. And you've been present when someone had quite a strong reaction to this. And I can take it, you know, let's have a conversation. You know, it means a lot to people. It also means a lot to people when we hold these values up and they feel that they're not experiencing those values, you know.

Ruth [: 00:13:37

And so for me, that's, you know, creating that space. Space to have those open conversations, feeling heard, you know, and if they have issues, they can bring them in and we can discuss them. I think we often get a lot more issues than other people because we're seen as neutral, neutral colleagues and whose role it is, you know, to listen and to support and to guide. But also, and you know me, Helith, I challenge a lot because I don't always agree with what people say and, you know, that they don't have any agenda or, you know, they don't have agency. You know, they do have agency. We need to help them really speak up, speak out, you know, step up. And those who do, I do think they get heard. I see a lot of that in our work.

Heledd Jarosz Griffiths [: 00:14:22

Yeah, no, absolutely. I think for me, it's that people understanding what their own values are and understanding how they then fit in with their community around them. And something that I've taken actually from a lot of things we do into my. More into my mentoring kind of role. So I'm a mentor at the university. I always start my mentoring meetings with explore your values. Let's explore. Let's start there.

Heledd Jarosz Griffiths [: 00:14:48

Let's see what's important to you. And it's such a good basis. It's such a good starting point for then, you know, the future work that you do on yourself and reflection and enabling you to really hear yourself a little bit more and what's important to you. So just thinking a little bit more about, you know, how do you kind of intentionally make space for reflection within workshops? Should we have a little bit more of a conversation about that? Yeah, I think for me in. I've done a lot of work with. When I first started this role, I applied for, to the UKCGE for my supervisory practice, my informal role in supervision. And that did a lot over my years as a postdoc and having that space to kind of reflect and really think about. Because I think researchers often don't maybe use that reflective practice.

Heledd Jarosz Griffiths [: 00:15:47

Maybe more so in The STEM subjects, it will be a lot different in the arts and humanities, but just to have that time to kind of reflect on your own kind of practice and what you do. And I found it incredibly enlightening to go, oh, okay, just to see the difference that I've made. But, you know, almost naturally made some changes that maybe wasn't necessarily aware of to make my supervisory practice better. And I wish I'd done so much more of it whilst I was a supervisor and recognized what. How I'd helped people, not necessarily to change the way that I did things, but, you know, just to recognize what I. You know, the practice and the good that I'd made in that time. See what I mean?

Ruth [: 00:16:34

Yeah. I think for me, a lot is about, yeah, we want to give people space. I always start thinking these are extremely busy people, and so I really need to make it worth their while, and I need to offer something that they don't necessarily experience in a day, daily, you know, in their daily lives. And that is really giving them. Giving them time to step back and think and feel and reflect with their colleagues. Because what we. What is so wonderful to see is, you know, you give them the space, whether it's in the webinar or workshop or a whole program, they come in, they're curious. They're there because they want to learn.

Ruth [: 00:17:16

And so creating that really safe space at the beginning is, for me, important. And I know you asked me to share a little bit how I do it. And because I do it on autopilot these days, it was really helpful to think, how do I actually do this? And so, for instance, I always insist I get the participant list beforehand because I just want to see who's coming in, who do I know, who do I not know? And yes, it might take me 20 minutes, but I will. Will check out who's coming in, what is the background, and when they come in, you know, I make an effort to go over. I come in early. If they come in early, I go over, you know, introduce myself and say hello. You know, I'm curious who they are. I want them to feel safe and engaged.

Ruth [: 00:18:00

And you also know quickly. Those who want to sit there in silence for a while, that's absolutely fine. You know, with coaches, we're trained to be very observant people need in the moment, you know, but I want them really to feel welcome. And we're here. We're curious about them, and we want to. We're here in their service. I mean, that's how I see my role. I'M I'm there to support these people, challenge them if necessary.

Ruth [: 00:18:21

And one thing that you picked up, Hailef is, you know, I'm really particular about names. For me, you know, the getting the name right is really important and I'm not even a native speaker so, you know, sometimes I struggle. But then I always say to people, I really want to get this right because I don't like it when people get my name wrong. You know, I think we're individuals, we have a name for a reason and it's our identity, isn't it? And you wouldn't believe how many people really like that, you know, well, they help me pronounce it. I mean, I know me in Welsh names is not a good combo, but you know, even if I don't get it right, they can see it matters because for me, I see them as individuals, as human beings. We're here to learn together and from each other. And that means I want to see them as individuals as the people who they are, whatever the nationality or their background or their expertise doesn't, you know, we're all unique and that's where I come from. And I think, you know, you can't really pretend to be that curious or open minded.

Ruth [: 00:19:18

I think either you are, you're not. But they feel it because they often say, oh, you really care? Of course I care. I think that's the thing.

Heledd Jarosz Griffiths [: 00:19:27

I think you make every participant feel seen. And I just love how you come into a room and you do create that space. I've seen it. You do it on many occasions and people do feel and it is the kind of recognition of who they are, it's their naming them, it's such a big thing. You'll see their names and you won't just say it once. You refer back to a comment that they've made earlier in the workshop and you know, so they, they know that you were listening, they, you remember what they've said and you've, you then incorporate that back into the workshop and you know, yes, a lot of that comes from all the experience that you've had and been able to facilitate. But I think that does create a space that feels so safe and they, each individual participant feels welcomed, feels heard. You know, the name pronunciation is something, something that I panic around.

Heledd Jarosz Griffiths [: 00:20:22

You know, my name isn't easy and you know, I hate it when people get it wrong. But then equally it almost then puts the fear in me to get other people's names wrong because I know the feeling that I have when people mispronounce my name. But then I panic. I think in those moments that they've told me their name, but I've forgotten how they've said they pronounce it. And having the confidence to say, can you please say that again? Because I want to get it right.

Ruth [: 00:20:48

Yeah, sorry. And I think there's also something else. I mean, you know, I'm a foreigner here. I don't feel like a foreigner anymore. I've been here for so many years, but I've worked and lived in three different countries. I remember how incredibly nervous I was when I came to this country as a student. And, oh, I was so scared, you know, is my English good enough? You know, will I understand people? Can I cope with a curriculum, all this kind of stuff? And of course it was all fine, but so I can really empathize. We have a lot of international researchers we work with.

Ruth [: 00:21:20

Some of them are quite young still. You know, they might be in their mid-20s, and they're, you know, they're thousands of miles away from home. They left their families behind. You know, it's. It's being aware what that means and how hard that is, and also recognize it as something that they've achieved already, you know, because it's a big thing. And so I try in many ways, you know, to put myself into their shoes. For instance, you and I know, you know, we're very approachable people. We care about the researchers, but they don't know us necessarily, you know, so that you want to make sure that they feel safe, that they can chill, that they can relax.

Ruth [: 00:21:58

And for me also, I want to work with the people in the room and their challenges. And by having these little conversations also in the break time, you know, I learn a lot about them. And then I can also bring them in because they want to share. You know, you can see it in their faces when you ask them. And they don't have to share. You know, there was. They don't need to share, but they often want to share, you know, and that makes them feel heard as well. So there.

Ruth [: 00:22:23

And it's interesting because I just do this automatically these days, you know, and you asking me about it, noticing. Oh, really? Do I do this?

Heledd Jarosz Griffiths [: 00:22:32

No, you do. And it's wonderful to see. It really is. And I think, you know, workshop we held the other day, as the day went on, you could see that some of the, maybe the quieter voices in the room were actually felt comfortable to then speak up, which was just really nice to see. And I think as well, you know, like, you've Already mentioned, we do have a lot of international students and a lot of people who, you know, are here with English as a second language and there are other barriers and other challenges and for us as facilitators to, to be aware of being fully inclusive of everybody in the room, people who've got disabilities or other kind of challenges to how do we help them be heard? And is it through things like, you know, I like to go and sit with a table or sit with an individual and have those one to one conversations and just check in, you know, are they understanding what we're talking about? You know, to give them those opportunities to kind of have their voice heard. So it doesn't necessarily always have to be through, you know, a big group discussion. Everybody wants to speak in that kind of space.

Ruth [: 00:23:42

And the energy levels, I think, you know, we watch out for. Because when we, when you and I do the leadership program together, you know, for us, yeah, we know the content, but for them it's all new and some of it is challenging and just, you know, watching people and seeing where's the energy and, and okay, let's do another little break because, you know, we want to work with them. You know, yes, we have our program and we want to deliver certain things, but it's keeping a real eye on how are people feeling, are they flagging their long days? It's warm in the room, you know, you want all these things. I mean, it's incredible what you do as a facilitator, isn't it? You're constantly watching everything and anything going on in a room because you need to take the temperature and you need to adapt. And also sometimes I say, you know what, we've done enough today. You know, not being slave to a schedule I think is also really important. This is where my flexibility comes in. But yeah, lots to learn, you know, and also to be aware of.

Ruth [: 00:24:43

And I think one thing I do pick up is people are much more confident now about saying in agreement group, I'm neurodiverse. What I need is X. Even four or five years ago, I didn't have that in workshops. And I find that really good, you know, that people, we normalize those conversations. And I think that's, for me, that is huge progress. It's really good to see.

Heledd Jarosz Griffiths [: 00:25:05

Oh yeah, absolutely. I think, yeah, it's huge, Vinny. And it's again, more voices being heard, more adaptions being made to help people, you know, get through the work that they need to do and work on themselves. And yeah, I think it's absolutely Brilliant. So in terms of maybe wrapping things up a little bit. So we've talked today about creating space for researchers to be heard and how key that is and really the impact it can have probably on their well being, their confidence and even their kind of ownership of career and where they might be going next and that noticeable shift in how they feel. You know, we've talked about that shift in confidence, you know, becoming more engaged, feeling confident enough to speak up within a group that they might not necessarily have done before. But what's one small bit of advice that we can give to others to help researchers feel heard?

Ruth [: 00:26:03

You know, for me, it all boils down to one thing. Time. And giving people time to have those conversations, whether it's stopping on the corridor when you bump into them, or seeing them sitting there somewhere having a coffee and saying, can I join you? I'd love to have a chat with you. Or you know, when they come into your office and they say, I have an issue and I have a problem and I really would appreciate having conversation with you because, you know, we're all so busy in academia and at the end, you know, when you look at really successful academics, when they retire, you know, and when they have all the speeches and what people love about them, you know, it's always about, yeah, you are a fantastic researcher, but you were always the person who made time for others and you had a sense of humor and you listened and, you know, you had an open door. And for me, that is the most important piece thing for all of us. We're all so busy, but we really need to think, you know, what are the priorities. And making time for me is something we can all do. And even if we just give every day 15 minutes to someone who really needs it, you know, that is already a culture shift for me and that's what I'm working on.

Ruth [: 00:27:21

And also for myself. You know, when people say, can you, can you just give me 15 minutes? Or I really have an issue. I've really tried very, very hard to make the time because people matter. They matter, you know, and who hasn't got 10 or 15 minutes?

Heledd Jarosz Griffiths [: 00:27:34

Yeah, and the impact that'll have on their, the way they feel, their self worth and their confidence, just. Yeah, it doesn't take much sometimes. Exactly. Yeah. No, I think you're right.

Ruth [: 00:27:46

Let's take more time to connect with people and have those really wonderful conversations and yeah, get to know our colleagues and, you know, it's so rewarding and you know, you know, I'm very relationship driven, but it's it's wonderful to build that community with people. And, you know, the things you learn about people when, when they open up a little bit and share about their histories, their cultures, their preferences, what they love in life, what they're up to, you know, it just builds up community. It builds that sense of belonging. And that's what we want to achieve, isn't it? And that's, that's the joy of working with each other, having these wonderful colleagues and doing the same things together, you know, to solve the big problems out there in the big wide world. You know, that that's what our jobs are all about.

Heledd Jarosz Griffiths [: 00:28:28

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much, Ruth. And thank you to everyone who's been listening today. We hope today's episode encourages to create space for yourself and others, to reflect, to be seen and to be heard. So until next time, thank you.

Intro / outro [: 00:28:49

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