(Episode 115) The Diverse World of Research Management and Administration with Simon Kerridge

Intro: 00:00:00

Welcome to the Research Culture Uncovered podcast, where in every episode we explore what is research culture and what should it be. You'll hear thoughts and opinions from a range of contributors to help you change research culture into what you want it to be.

Ged Hall: 00:00:22

Welcome to the latest episode of the Research Culture Uncovered podcast.

My name is Ged Hall, and I'm an Academic Development Consultant for Research Impact at the University of Leeds. All the episodes I contribute to the podcast focus on some aspects of research impact. So have a look in the show notes for that playlist. I. But today I'm actually expanding my remit and looking at the whole research management and administration ecosystem, or RMA.

One reason for that is that Ruth Winden, one of my co-hosts, and I have been working on provision to support the career development of colleagues within that ecosystem at Leeds. We've come up with a longitudinal programme called Research Professionals Careers Conversations, and we've also delivering our inaugural careers day for research professionals.

th of May,: 2025

But to help me to get to grips with this RMA ecosystem, I'm chatting to Dr. Simon Kerridge. Simon runs Kerridge Research Consulting, which specialises in this field. His expertise comes from over 30 years of working in RMA, laterally as the Director of Research Services at the University of Kent in the UK.

He is also a board member of the European Association of Research Managers and Administration Administrators or EARMA, and he has been chair of the UK's Association of Research Managers and Administrators. He's got a passion to drive the development of the profession across the world and has been involved in projects such as the International Network of Research Management Societies.

Or INORMS, Research admin Administration as a Profession RAAP Task Force, which he leads, I. This work has led to the production of the Emerald Handbook of Research Management and Administration around the world, which is absolutely truly the magnum opus of the profession, with 127 contributors from over 50 countries, and every single chapter is available online for free.

Simon, welcome to the podcast.

Simon Kerridge: 00:02:54

Well, uh, thank you very much for having me.

Ged Hall: 00:02:56

Before we dive into the book as your, uh, regular LinkedIn posts about it, call it, um, I really wanted to know, um, how are the dogs, because you always bring them into every presentation I've ever seen. I.

Simon Kerridge: 00:03:11

Well, the dogs are kind of fine, however, we've had a sort of expansion.

So, uh, as you know, um, four dogs, uh, which usually make, uh, appearances on my presentation and unfortunately not in the room today. So they probably won't make an appearance on, on the podcast. I. Our son, who was, uh, living with us during Covid, um, has three dogs and, uh, he's now moved out to live with his girlfriend.

Uh, she has two cats and the dogs and the cats don't get on too well. So we have now retained his three. So we have a gaggle of seven dogs and they don't necessarily all get on with each other. So, um, it's a. A bit like a French farce at feeding time or whatever. You sort of open one door and the dogs, three dogs run this way to that room, and then you close that door and then one's run this way.

And they all, but they, they we're in this routine now, so they all know where they go at what time, but it's, it's hilarious.

Ged Hall: 00:04:07

Well. Maybe we, maybe we should have that recording sometime or maybe put it out as a, as a, as a kind of bonus episode. That would be lovely.

Simon Kerridge: 00:04:15

Right? It could be a meme of some sort, couldn't it?

Ged Hall: 00:04:17

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Right. Well, um, I thought I had my hands full with one nutter, but you know, I think. Seven.

Yeah.

Simon Kerridge: 00:04:27

Yes. The Un Magnificent Seven.

Ged Hall: 00:04:30

Yes, absolutely. So I guess we really ought to get back onto the topic if we must, if we must, rather than just talk about dogs. Um, let's hope none of our other outside passions of overlap 'cause

Simon Kerridge: 00:04:44

Well, indeed.

Uh, but I, I suppose actually just while we're still on the subject of dogs, um, I don't know if you have seen the actual hardback. Version of the book. Indeed. The front cover, uh, has dogs on it.

Ged Hall: 00:04:58

Ah, so they have got in there, right? They have, yes. Excellent. Right. So people have keep, uh, we're keeping people on tenter hooks.

So The Book, tell me about the process of pulling it together. So, um, you know, interestingly, to tell us about the book, which I think, you know, giving you that. 60 seconds to try and summarise 81 chapters. It's, it, the book is absolutely gargantuan. Um, tell us about the people involved and the joys and challenges of pulling it all together.

And, and the reason I'm really interested in that is really what you learnt from the process, because I. I was co-editor of a book many years ago, and that only had 27 chapters and 32 contributors. But I really think it's one of the reasons why I'm now bald.

Simon Kerridge: 00:05:49

I wasn't gonna say anything. Mm-hmm. So this could well be a toupee.

You don't know, do you?

Ged Hall: 00:05:53

Yeah, that's true. So go on. Tell us about the book.

Simon Kerridge: 00:05:56

Well, of course it kind of happened by accident. Um, I was, uh, I was at. Uh, the NAMA Conference, the Norwegian Association of Research Managers and Administrators in it was February, 2020, um, just before. Um, and, uh, also that, um, as one of the invited speakers was, um, Susi Poli from, uh, University of Bologna.

Um, also a big sort of EARMA, person. She's written, you know, a few articles and so on. Um, and, uh, she was chatting with someone who had reached out to her, um. Mariko, um, Yoshihara Yang (correct name Mariko Yang-Yoshihara) from, um, from Stanford who had come over, um, for, for that. And now she's sort of mainly, um, a kind of, uh, uh, educational researcher, um, but has an interest in the sort of pen number of things, uh, around everything to do with education.

So, and she'd done a little bit of work, um, on, uh, research managers in Switzerland. Um, not. Obvious why, uh, she, she's, uh, um, sort of, uh, uh, uh, Japanese by descent, um, and working, uh, in America. So I'm not quite sure, and I I have never really asked her. That's terrible, isn't it? Um, how she ended up, uh, doing this piece of research, uh, in, in Switzerland.

Anyway, so the three of us got talking at a, at a coffee break, and we all had similar sort of overlapping, um, interests. Um. Uh, um, Mariko was very interested, um, in, um, research managers and administrators who had been researchers, so that kind of move, uh, you know, from mm-hmm. You know, sort of the, you know, the, the rationale for that.

Um, and so particularly, uh, those, those with PhDs, um. Uh, Susi generally interested in research management, you know, more broadly and sort of higher education management. Uh, and me, I was kind of sitting at that point on the data from the second, uh, RAAP survey, um, research administration profession, which I'm, we can talk more about or not, or mm-hmm.

I'm sure everybody knows all about it. Um, and which kinda like, oh, if we put all these three things together, we could write an interesting paper, um, then. Sort of covid happened. We sort of had these conversations over Zoom every couple of weeks and trying to get the focus of the paper down, and it sort of turned into two papers and, and three pa and, and then Susi said, look, we've got loads here.

Why? Why don't we just write a book? And Mariko and I looked at each other and thought, well, that's the most stupid thing we've ever heard. What, what a, a book whatcha talking about? And now. Susi had previously been the editor of another book, uh, Research Management Europe and Beyond. Um, so she kind of knew what she was letting herself in for, I guess, I don't know.

And Mariko and I just, oh yeah, fine. Okay, whatever. Um, and so that's kind of how it happened sort of by accident. So I guess we started talking about potentially writing a paper together in February, and by about September-ish, we'd sort of. Agreed to write a book. Um, and then it went through the process of, Hmm.

Okay. Well, I'm very much. Open access for me, everything I do has to be open access, freely available. 'cause nobody would pay to read anything I'd write. But, um, but, you know, but also for obvious, uh, research culture reasons. Um, and so it was, okay, well if we can write a book, this open access, that means that we either need to self publish or get someone to pay for, you know, the, the book, you know, the, the sort of the, the BPC, the book processing charge.

Um. So we kind of reached out to a few potential, uh, publishers, um, to find out, you know, a, would they do such a thing and B, how much it would cost. Um, and, uh. Sort of previously done some things with Emerald, they'd been sponsors for, uh, ARMA conferences and so on. Um, and so, you know, I reached out and they said, well, yeah, yeah, we had the conversation and they, you know, we worked out then what, what the price would be.

And really that sounds like quite a lot. And we had a bit of negotiation at about how fantastic would be and how this book was bound to put Emerald on the map. Ha ha. Yeah. Anyway. Or the other way around. Um, but anyway, we thought, okay, so we got this price of, you know. Uh, uh, quite a few thousands of Euros.

Um, and we said to ourselves, well, why don't we just ask these various national associations around the world, um, if they'd like to sponsor it? And some of them did. Uh, so we said, fantastic. Thank you very much. Uh, it turned up, um, we got the bulk with the sponsorship from, uh, from EARMA the European Association.

Uh, we also got funding from, uh, Darma, the Danish Association, uh, from. ARMA-NL, the Dutch Association, and from FORTRAMA, the German Association. Um, so put those bits together, um, promised we'd send Emerald the money, and then the very short process of putting the book together then ensued. Um, and yeah, I mean we had to do a proposal and say roughly what was going to be in it.

And that proposal was peer reviewed to see if anybody actually might. Be interested in, in, in reading it. Um, yeah. And so that's kind of how it started. And I've just started talking drl and I didn't know how much you wanted. Sorry.

Ged Hall: 00:11:17

So tell, yeah, go, go into, so that's, that's an interesting starting point. Um, but yeah, tell us, tell us like the overview, the aims, you know, what, what went into that proposal.

Simon Kerridge: 00:11:28

Mm-hmm. Yeah, so we basically, um, again with three kind of main editors, we sort of knew the things that we definitely wanted to have in it. Um, so, uh, Mariko was very keen on having this sort of, you know, that that sort of, uh, PhD, uh, type focus and it, for it to have academic content, um. I was very keen for it to have, well, kind of what is research management, what's the state of play research management and the kind of the, around the world bit and trying to get people to actually use, uh, you know, the, the RAAP data to sort of contextualise how, how research management, um.

I worked in, in different countries. Um, and Susi was kind of a bit, you know, between the two, you know, and, and interested in, in, you know, in, in, in both sides. So we ended up sort of dividing, uh, the book into a number of sections. Um, and there was broadly the kind of academic and professional sections, which are the first lot.

Um, and then the second section of the book, uh, is very much, um, a kind of. Chapter per country or, or region about, you know, what is the state of research management in that region? Um, kind of what does it look like and what are the pressures and what's the sort of potential future? Um, so we very much got the, the state of the art bits, uh, but also the kind of what is the profession, the identity, professionalism, how does it fit in with other, you know, history and, and and, and so on.

So it's sort of, I liked Opus Magnus, I like that. Um, mm-hmm. Just kind of suggests that I should never write anything again though, doesn't it? Um, so, so yeah, that was the plan and, and then we kind of started thinking, well, we could have a chapter on this, chapter on that. Um, we might need some. Other people to write some content, how do we find them?

So we had quite a big network, but we also reached out to the various associations, um, saying, uh, anybody want to write something about your country? Um, and uh, yeah, and then we realised, oh, we're gonna have, as you say, um, 81 chapters. It's probably only about 75, 76 substantive chapters. 'cause there's cut off the introduction and stuff.

But, uh, uh, that's, um. That's still quite a lot of work. And as you say, um, 127, uh, contributors, I mean, that included us. So it's only really, you know, 120 or so that Yeah, weren't us. Um, and that's when we came up this idea of, of, of regional editors who we could not have done it without. So basically we kind of, um.

Split it up into, well, we call them regional editors. Um, but there were also, some of them were sort of, kind of subject to area editors. So there was sort of, you know, the history ones and so on. Um, so we had, uh, seven people from around the world who, who, who kind of joined us and they did the bulk of the work.

Um, by work, I mean, chasing the authors, reminding them, telling them, yeah, it's nothing, right. But, uh. And, you know, and sourcing them and finding them and so on. And, um, I don't know if they all know this, but the book cover is a mountain with three mountaineers going up. And the three mountaineers potentially represent, uh, the, the three editors.

And there are seven dogs helping the mountaineers. And there are seven regional editors. And perhaps that's all I need to say, but that just shows how much we love the regional editors. 'cause of course, uh, dogs are our favourite creatures.

Ged Hall: 00:14:38

Yeah, absolutely. It sounds like a, an amazing collaborative process, um, which can bring its amazing joys and, and amazing challenges, and I'm sure that the, there were things along the way that probably fell into both of those categories and lots of them.

Simon Kerridge: 00:14:53

Absolutely, yes.

Ged Hall: 00:14:55

Yeah. Brilliant. Uh, you mentioned, um, identity in that and that's, that was something I'm interested in, in for the second question. Um, so there, there are really many roles and identities that make up the research managers and administrators, or RMA am gonna drop to the acronym from now on, um, in terms of the profession.

So. Can you now, I've never joined any of the associations that you mentioned. You saw, you know, the obvious one

Simon Kerridge: 00:15:25

because you're a maverick, because,

Ged Hall: 00:15:28

possibly because I'm a maverick, but I think that's more because I often saw, and this might be completely incorrect on my part, I often saw that process as being the get the money in.

Get the money managed, get the outputs delivered essentially. So that kind of pipeline of the, of the research process. So, you know, I know in our prep for this interview, we, you were going No, you are absolutely. You know. Whatever you are, you are part of this, this kind of really broad ecosystem. So can you tell the listeners kind of what's your conception of RMA and how, just how broad is it?

Simon Kerridge: 00:16:06

Hmm. Okay. So yeah, I, I guess I'll, I'll fall back. I. Oh, there are a number of definitions, um, and they're all a little bit, uh, loosey goosey and or too scope, and so they don't quite fit. Um, one of my favourite ones was one that the, uh, the a CU put together, um, which was. Along the lines of, um, anything and everything that is done to support the research process.

Um, I think their definition actually said, said in the university environment, but I would certainly broaden that out because research is done, um, in other places. Um, but also I would include people who are supporting research in, uh. Funding organisations as well. So sort of that, you know, our, our counterparts if you like.

Um, but yes, so, uh, you would definitely say kind of pre-award, post-award. Um, a as you've kind of described it, they would be, if you like, the core of, uh, of, of the RMA profession, you've then got the kind of all the output type stuff, the sort of scholarly communication if you like. Um, and that's where there's a.

Definite overlap with this sort of the library, um, uh, profession. Um, but you've then got sort of associated areas. So, uh, when we did the, uh, the RAAP, the RAAP survey, we asked people what areas they worked in. Um, one of them was, well, do you work in supporting research students? So, uh, in the UK. Most universities will have a separate graduate school, and those people are sometimes perhaps more aligned with Vitae.

Um, but some of them are perhaps also aligned with, with ARMA and maybe there's an overlap. And is the graduate school actually part of the research office and it, yeah, so, so there's a sort of an overlap there and probably about. 30 40% of, uh, people across the world who responded, uh, to the research administration as a profession survey said that they included in the, their area, that area of work.

Uh, you then also got the sort of the, the area that, that you, you would perhaps cover as sort of. Uh, training and communication, so that internal researcher development. Um, and I would certainly see that as being very core too. So to me, um, in more recent surveys we've asked about three areas, which are the kind of the researcher development, uh, the pre-award and, and, and the post award as being the three sort of main areas.

Um, if you wanted to have it as kind of three, much easier for graphs than, than than eight areas. Um, so yeah, you'd also have, um. Translation, technology, transfer, knowledge exchange, whatever you want to call it. Uh, and again, in the UK that's very much the sort of the, the, the AURIL remit. But if you go to places, um, like, uh, Africa and South America, then that's very much, they don't call it research management administration, they call it research and innovation management.

So the two things are tied together. It's just a continuum, and that's the way they, they have things organised there. So it's kind of changes, um, uh, uh, you know, kind of a little bit. Um. When we, when we ask people, you know, what do you identify as? Um, most people would say Research management administrator into the UK.

No, that's a lie. I don't mean most, I mean the largest, when we gave them 10 options in including the other, um, about 25, 30%. Um, said. So the highest number of respondents as said research administrator, but everything else was also covered. You go to the US. Uh, research administrator. Now research administrator is actually a term in the US.

It's sort of recognised by the federal government and so on. But even in the US only 40% of people identified as a research administrator. A lot would identify, uh, you know, as something else, maybe a research manager or a research advisor, uh, you know. So all, all sorts of different phrases and research advisor is what they call it in, in, in Scandinavia.

So yeah, there, there's a real sort of problem with the definition, with the scope. Um, and I'm now trying to remember what the original question was. Yes, that was it. Uh, so, uh, are you a research manager, administrator? Uh, if you think you are, then you are. Uh, if you don't think you are, you just don't realise yet, that might be the way of putting it.

Um, and yeah, I suppose it depends. Sorry, just going back to the, the US example, um, there are two big associations of. Research administrators. But there's also a separate association for researcher development. Um mm-hmm. So there's, uh, the NORDP, I don't know if you've heard of that.

Ged Hall: 00:20:26

I, I haven't.

Simon Kerridge: 00:20:27

Uh, National Organization for Research Development Professionals, um, which was actually a spinoff from one of the other associations because those people felt that they weren't really being served because everything was focused on the pre-award and the post-award.

So, you know, it's kind of like a, you know, a, you know, sort of a splinter group I guess in the same way is, um. PRISM (Professional Research Investment and Strategy Manager) has sort of grown up in, in, in the UK, uh, kind of is sort of, to me, real research manager administrator. But if they felt they weren't being served by ARMA, it wasn't really their place, then, you know, they needed their own place and, you know, and these spinoffs happen and then sometimes get reabsorbed and so on.

So yeah, we shall see.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Um, yeah. So it's fluid.

Ged Hall: 00:21:07

Yeah, it's interesting. It's almost like, um, it's definitely not as coming back to dogs as, as, um, as kind of fixed as packs. Um, but much more kind of, uh, able to kind of absorb another pack. 'cause you've, you essentially in your house of two packs Yes.

That you are, that you are managing. Um, and uh, we're, we're in our kind of tribalism. Uh, I think, uh, we can, we can, we can cope with being with a tribe or sometimes we can. Not and pop out. Yeah.

Simon Kerridge: 00:21:39

Yes. That's very nice. And I do like that example. 'cause one of, one of the, uh, the dogs from the pack of three actually gets on with the pack of four.

So he kind of gets the best of both worlds because, uh, he can come into where the humans are, um, you know, with, with, with, with either set. So, uh, so he goes, he goes really well. And I think that's probably, you know, a good, good example for professional development is if you're involved in two or three different networks, then you.

You get benefit from, from all of them. Um, I just wanna throw one other acronym at you, which is, um, Professionals at the Interface of Science. Um, which is, um, it's a Portuguese, um, grouping. In fact, their national association is called, uh, uh. PIC, uh, which is more or less translated for, for the platform, uh, for professionals interface of, of science, and, and kind of by science they mean research.

So it's this type. Yeah. Um, so, and I quite, I quite like that, uh, professionals interface of, 'cause it's, it's sort of, kind of shows you actually, you don't need to be in a university, it's just anyone who is, you know, around but not actually directly doing the research.

Ged Hall: 00:22:42

Yeah. Lovely. Um, now because of that complexity that you've just sketched out, um, there's a lot of thinking at the moment in, certainly in the UK and UK uh, universities, really, really looking at what's that career pathway.

Mm-hmm. And actually when you're talking about so many different almost, um, professional competencies that we're talking about in that, in that ecosystem, it's quite. Challenging to think that through, but so what, what's, what's your view in terms of how might we see that career pathway agenda being taken forward in our, in RMA over the medium term?

Simon Kerridge: 00:23:22

Okay, that's a great question, but one which I'm going to defer slightly 'cause there was something I meant to say on the previous one, so I'm gonna jump back in. And you can do a fantastic edit or just make me, you know, seem stupid and, and continue the flow. That's probably the way to go. Um, just going back to the identity, uh, there is a wonderful new tool and yes, I was involved in developing it, uh, which looks at sort of values motivations.

Um, it's called a RAPIDS tool, Research Administrators Professional. I. IDentity tool, and it's basically, it's a questionnaire which you fill in and you know, but you say what areas you work in. So there's a bit of sort of demographic stuff there, but it really has to do with, you know, uh, say values, motivations, and skills.

Um, we had about a thousand or 1,095, uh, people respond to the initial survey, so we've now got a really nice. Sort of baseline data. Uh, so as an individual you can now fill it in, uh, and then you get presented with the graphs afterwards, sort of radar graphs of here are your values and motivations compared with the ones for a typical research manager and administrator.

Um, so if you look at that and you. Perhaps try it out and see if you fall within the green area. And if you do, maybe that might mean that you are very suited to be a research management administrator and might actually be one. Um, so I mean, if you just look for, um, oh Dear Rapids, it's not a great acronym, is it?

We can do links and stuff afterwards.

Ged Hall: We can put links in the shownotes. Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

Simon Kerridge: 00:24:46

So anyway, sorry. Career pathways I think is the question, question that you really wanted to answer. Um, yeah. Uh, well, hmm. Yes. Okay. So. Given that we start off with not really knowing exactly what we do anyway, or how to describe it, having a career pathway is really difficult from there.

Um, so again, the US is probably a good example, you know. Kind of profession's been around for 60 odd years. Um, and, um, certain states do have sort of, um, definitions for and pay scales, uh, for kind of, um, research administrator, one research administrator, two senior research administrator, you know, different, different, different terms in different states, of course.

Um, uh, and so those, those kind of things do exist. Um. You kind of get them sort of in some universities in the UK, but they're kind of usually developed. Centrally by the research office as a kind of, yes. You join as a, um, sort of a research, research, um, administrator. I can say research assistant, getting confused there, research administrator.

Um, and you then might do, you know, sort of develop your skills and then get a team of people. Maybe that means you are then a research manager or, you know, so Yeah. But, but there's no, there's no clear, um, progression. Um. Again, they've got the same IT issue in Italy where, um, there is no definition, um, on, again, all university jobs are kind of civil service jobs in Italy.

Um, and so you have to have, um, a definition of what the role is and then you can produce a scale and those just don't exist at the moment. So the, uh, the Italian association are trying, trying to sort of work on that. But of course it's, uh, you know, it's, it's a long process. So, um. Yeah, I'm wondering whether there ought to, should be some sort of concerted, uh, you know, um, effort in, in the UK.

I mean, I know ARMA did some work probably eight or 10 years ago in, uh, creating this sort of certification programme. Um, but that doesn't really help with a career as such because you know, whether you've got a. A bachelor's or a master's or, or a PhD doesn't relate to directly where you are in, in, uh, in a career.

But yeah. Um, the other thing that's worth, I guess, looking at is the RM Roadmap projects, which is, yeah. Um, EU funded, uh, project, I dunno how long it's gonna go. Probably two years, 18 months. Um, which is. Defining, um, uh, research, uh, administration in mainland Europe these days, I guess. Um, and, uh, it's defining that on four levels to kind of mirror the researcher 1, 2, 3, 4, that the, uh, that they have in all the various, uh, European Commission documents.

And so you can then build a, a kind of a framework on top of that. So it could well be worth looking at that, um, as a, as a, as a basis for any institution. Um. Like your own, uh, who's, who's considering putting that together, so Yeah. But it's not a done deal yet.

Ged Hall: 00:27:52

Yeah, I mean that's, that's definitely one of the projects that's going on at the moment.

In fact, the career pathways is covering both academic and, and, uh, and non-academic.

Simon Kerridge: 00:28:02

Mm-hmm. Um, what a lovely phrase idea. I know it's, do we call our academic colleagues? Do we call them non-professional? 'cause we are professional staff. I tried that once. It didn't work.

Ged Hall: 00:28:11

Yes, I did. Yeah. How to. How to win friends and influence people.

Yeah. It's, I was trying to avoid saying it, but uh, but it's just so easy to to, you know, try and slip into the, into the, into the, they're over there and we're over here kind of mentality. Yes. Um, but yeah, we're, we're, we're trying to do some work on that. So that's something I'll be, you know, it's being led out of our.

Where I work in the university reports into the people and culture. Mm-hmm. Um, directorate. So it's being led within the same directorate to as me. So yeah, I'll definitely see if we can get some of that information from RM Roadmap into the, into that thinking. Um, but, but it is a, it is a challenge. I mean, one thing that kind of does strike me is that, you know, from my time in industry.

Um, before I came into higher education, um, after 10, after 10 years working in industry, is that academic promotions are a complete outlier. They're a complete, that's a completely different way of managing your career than Yes. Almost anywhere else.

Simon Kerridge: 00:29:22

So absolutely there is no vacancy, but it doesn't matter. You can still be promoted.

Ged Hall: 00:29:25

Yes, absolutely. And, and I think that's, that's something that perhaps, you know, the RMA. Profession within a university, maybe you ought to be going, perhaps WW This is just normal and, and actually there is a career pathway. If I as an individual work out where it is I want to go and how I want to get there.

Mm-hmm. Um, and uh, from my time as a Head of Careers, that's definitely the advice I would, uh, I would've been giving back in, back in that period. But it, it's can sometimes feel a bit. Challenging to, in to, yeah. To individuals.

Simon Kerridge: 00:30:01

I mean, yeah. Yeah. I mean, certainly one of the things that, uh, on those sort of motivations, um, uh, at scale is that sort of working in uncertainty.

Um, and, uh, so that is something which, if you are. Happy with and research management is suited for you. Um, but I do then wonder for those people who are research managers who are not that keen on that particular aspect, wouldn't it be nice if there was a, a very clear framework for them, just like you get in, you know, in, in, you know, accountancy or, or mm-hmm.

Whatever, where yes, if you do these sorts of exams, you'll get that and then you are then eligible to have this thing here and, and, you know, sometimes even, you know. You just get paid more because you're more qualified, um, uh, even if you're doing the same role.

Ged Hall: 00:30:46

Yeah. That's interesting. I'll, I'll, I'll jump to. That question next actually, 'cause it was one that I was in also interested in when we were doing the prep around this. So, you know, you, you've mentioned INORMS that has around 20 national and, and regional members in that Yes. International community of networks. Yes. And uh. How do you see those organisations growing and changing over the years?

Do you see them maybe coming a bit more stronger in terms of professional bodies like accountancy, like engineering, like medical professions, and maybe maybe them providing that kind of accreditation and kind of, you know, more detailed CPD than pot? Potentially They offer at the moment.

Simon Kerridge: 00:31:28

Yeah. Okay. That's interesting. Um, so yes, uh, the, so what do we have? We have in the US um, there is the Research Administration Certification Council, which is, um, sort of endorsed by spinoff from, uh. The two associations that, I dunno if I actually named or not. NCURA and SRAI. Um, so, uh, you can become a certified research administrator.

There are also a certification specifically for pre-award and, uh, for post-award financial. Um, so you can get those, um. Certifications, they're very much exam based and they're the sort of certifications which, uh, you need to keep up a certain number of CPD in order to, you know, to keep that within your sort of a, a five year period.

Um, so that's, um, that's kind of okay. Um, but the car, I guess the European approach is a bit more. Exams. Hmm. Well, how about, you know, portfolio evidence based? So, you know, the ARMA, um, certifications, the, uh, CRA and the CRM and, uh, the CRLM as were, um, so that, sorry, administrator manager, uh, at leader in research management, uh, I guess about 10 years ago.

So they were created, they're currently being revamped. I'm not quite sure what the new ones are, um, again, gonna look like. Um, and it's quite interesting because that ARMA framework was used in Europe and the European Association has been running those, but it's now also looking to revamp it. And they're also, uh, have a, um, uh, a new projects.

Sort of following on from, uh, RM Roadmap called RM Framework, uh, which is actually looking at all of the training provision, um, um, that's around and sort of giving maybe sort of quality badges for that. So trying to build together a, a kind of a, a training framework. It was also used in Canada by the Canadian Association, uh, Carra for their.

Uh, Canadian equipment of the CRM, but they've also now moved away, uh, from that original sort of ARMA framework, and they now have a corporation with, uh, with Mohawk College. Um, and so you get an actual, um, you know, a, a accredited, um, thing by, uh, an educational provider, um, rather than. Um, sort of the professional one if you like.

Um, the Australasian Association ARMS, they have a sort of similar portfolio training type one, um, but that's entirely self-certified. So it's self-certified by the association, but they do have on their kind of advisory board. Um, various people who are high up in government and their funders and so on.

And so that certification is worth something because of the people you know, who, who endorse it. Um, I think the one I like most is, um, in Southern Africa they have the IPRC (International Professional Recognition Council) , um, uh, which is sort of associated with SARIMA, the Southern African, uh, Research and Innovation, uh, Management Society. But again, um, uh, separate from, um, but that's.

It's very much, although it's, it's sort of African based, it's very much international, international advisory, uh, boards, um, and, and, and so on. Um, so this kind of, I, I can see developments happening, you know, in all of those places. There are also a couple of master's programmes, um, mainly in the US although I think there are some in Germany.

Um, but they tend to be more sort of project management with research management mm-hmm. Rather than specifically research management. Um, but there's a little bit of work going on in the US at the moment about, uh, undergraduate courses in, uh, research management or research administration, as they would call it.

Um, so that's a very interesting, uh, development because yeah, when you. Grow up and you think, yes, do, do I wanna be a ballet dancer? Do I wanna be a rocket scientist? Do I wanna be a research manager? The research manager thing doesn't really exist in people's minds because you, yeah, you don't see it, but there's also no degree course you could do in it.

Um, so, um, the other thing that's worth looking at, if people dunno about it, is, uh, again, it was a European project called foRMAtion. Um. fo capital RMA tion. Very nice. Yeah. Um, which developed some, um, electives for undergraduate courses. So, um, additional modules, uh, which, which undergraduates could do, um, and all the materials for that are available online.

So if you look for formation against not Great word formation, look for formation EU and, and, and you would find those. So again, for anyone interested in, in kind of, you know, sort of that undergraduate level. Um, so for me. I would love to see an undergraduate course in research management and administration, and I think that's what we will see, but probably not before I fully retire.

Ged Hall: 00:36:25

Yes, absolutely. Yeah. It's, it's fascinating, you know, as you were describing that it almost felt like a, an innovation system and we're just waiting to see which idea is actually stronger, aren't

Simon Kerridge: 00:36:36

Yes, exactly. Yes.

Ged Hall: 00:36:37

Yeah, yeah. That's, uh, so yeah, so. In other words, keep watching and see which one,

Simon Kerridge: 00:36:43

watch this space. Yes.

Ged Hall: 00:36:44

Yeah. Takes off. Um, so coming back to, you know, what was gonna be one of my earlier questions? So one of the early chapters in the book talked about the gender balance in, in RMA roles, uh, and in regions where the profession is more established, such as Western Europe, there were more females, uh, in that range of roles, but a skew towards males in more senior roles.

You know, not. Not unlike a lot of, uh, professions, unfortunately. So what actions do you want to see taken in this area? How important are they with the recent kind of rollback of equality, diversity, and inclusion in the US that you've been talking about a lot.

Simon Kerridge: 00:37:24

So yes, the, the gender, uh, skewness, uh, is.

Internationally average, about 78, 80%. Um, uh, RMAs, identify as female. Uh, it's about 83, 80 4%, uh, in the US, 85%, uh, here, 77 whatever across most European countries, um, in South America. Or at least specifically in Columbia, we have sufficient data. And in most of Africa it's closer to 50 50. Also closer to 50 50 in Japan as well.

Um, but it also relatively new, uh, in Japan. Um, there was some sort of funding put into create research offices and probably about seven years ago now. Um, so yes, it's. It's a very interesting, why is it that way? Is it because it's a service profession, a support profession? And I don't want to do this analogy, but I'm gonna do the analogy.

Uh, we have maybe doctors doing surgery and people helping them doing surgery. Who might I. Be called nurses. Um, and I dunno what the gender, uh, split is, but I imagine it could be something very similar. Um, so, you know, is, is is that sort of somehow analogous and I don't wanna put any words in, in people's mouths, um, but.

Maybe it's to do with the kind of the type of person, uh, you know, that you are. Um, you know, again, going back to that sort of RAPIDS survey, you know, are we the sort of people that are attracted to this sort of role? Uh, because it's supportive doing things for the. Greater good, but also being a little bit more flexible with your time maybe.

Um, so maybe it's a bit more family friendly. I'm sure most people will say it isn't. It's also a very highly stressful profession. There's some, you know, some great surveys on that done by, um, Jennifer Shambrook. So, um, so maybe there is a sort of, sort of person that that, that it is attracted to that, um, sort of my feeling is maybe.

In places where it's a newer profession, probably, and this is definitely true in in Africa, a lot of people who are research managers have very recently been researchers, or more likely are actually still researchers at the moment. And they're just having to pick up the research management role because there isn't a research office.

Um, and in general, um, researchers are. Uh, gender balance, uh, tends to be in certain, in the sciences, a little bit more male, uh, oriented than, than female oriented. And that's where there are more researchers. Um, and so maybe that's why the, the balance is closer to 50 50. Just to pick you up on one point, you are correct that for the senior roles, uh, that balance is not as skewed.

So thinking back to that first RAAP data set, it was a say about. 80%, uh, for the UK data, um, um, overall as being, uh, female. And when you came to, uh, the leadership roles, it was closer to 70%. Um, so there is still that sort of, you know, glass ceiling, but it's not a hugely thick glass ceiling. It's not like it drops down to 20% or anything.

Mm-hmm. I'm not saying that's great, but Yeah. Uh, but most recent survey, there RAAP three survey, there was only about. Two percentage points difference. So perhaps the things that needed to be done have been done. Um, uh, or maybe that's an outlier when we do the RAAP forth survey later this year. Maybe it'll be the, the other way again, or perhaps, uh, will be, um, have a higher proportion of, uh, uh, female leaders in, in research management than, than the average.

That would be lovely, but I'm sure it won't be the case.

Ged Hall: 00:41:08

Yeah, it would be lovely to keep our eye on that over this. Yeah. Over the, uh, when, when does RAAP four?

Simon Kerridge: 00:41:14

Well, it, we do 'em every three years, so it has to be sometime, uh, this year we were hoping, uh, to apply for some US, uh, funding. Um, but US Yeah, indeed.

So, uh, so we've been sort of holding off on, on doing that so we could get the funding to do the survey. That's not gonna happen. Um, so we'll probably be running the survey for something like May, June. But we'll see.

Ged Hall: 00:41:39

Yeah. Okay. So you, you mentioned the, the, the retirement word. Um, and I'm hoping in the next, uh, you know, three, three and a half years, um, that will be the end of my career as a

Simon Kerridge: 00:41:52

so early retirement at 50,

Ged Hall: 00:41:55

I wish. No early retirement at 60. Um, so yeah, next, uh, next three years or so. So. In terms of that kind of timeline or maybe a little bit longer, what, what are your hopes really for the profession? You know, if you can crystallise it into something, you know, this is, this is Simon's view of the perfect RMA world.

Simon Kerridge: 00:42:18

Wow. Okay. Well the first thing is it would be, uh, recognised. Um, and I think sometimes people like yourself who are doing research management perhaps don't realise that they are so. Or identify as something other, and that's fine, but probably, yeah, and I, and I'm sure you feel like you're part of, you know, the whole overall research infrastructure, um, but maybe having a, a know sort of better understanding of, of where you fit.

Um, having people, uh, like HR understand what we do so they, we can be included in, uh, frameworks and career development frameworks and so on. Um. Having our bosses know what we do. If we work in a research office, then that's fine because probably our boss does know what we do in the research office.

Unless of course it's the director of research and depending on, uh, where they report, um, then they may not really know what we do. Um, if we work for Pro-Vice Chancellor for research. They probably have a good idea, may work for the director of finance, maybe, maybe not quite so much. Um, so yeah, yeah, all sorts of aspersions being cast there and apologies to, to anyone who fully understands what we do.

Um. For our families to know what we do, that would be quite nice. It's quite difficult to articulate sometimes because it's something different every day, which is why it's such a great profession because you never know what's coming. And uh, uh, if you like a little bit of excitement and variety, then it's definitely for you.

If you like doing the same thing every day, probably work on a car production line. Um, so that, that sort of recognition, um. It would be absolutely fabulous to have an undergraduate course, um, um, somewhere, um, that would, that would be great. Uh, and I would like to see more, uh, research on research management.

There is a current, uh, initiative at the moment called Research on Research Management Administration, um, which, uh, is being looked at by EARMA and if all goes well, will hopefully be launched at the forthcoming INORMS conference in in May, in in Madrid. Um. Where we we're just trying to, you know, pull together, uh, uh, researcher practitioners, sort of like myself, uh, but also, uh, people who are proper researchers get paid to do research, uh, who are, uh, researching research management, um, or would like to do research and research management.

used, which came out, I think: 2016

Uh, no, 2006 Goodness Mix. Um, yeah. Um, and there are, I think four. Journals, which are sort of focused on research management, administration, research, governance, um, uh, and that's, that's really it. Um, but so trying to, you know, bring all those, those, those things together, uh, would be great. So actually having it as a recognized research area, whenever I submit a paper to our, the academic repository or whatever, uh, there's no, I can't tick the appropriate place for it 'cause it doesn't really exist.

So, yeah. So, so that would be nice. Um, and wouldn't it be fantastic to have a recognised. Career framework. Wouldn't that be great? That's not much to ask for three years, is it?

Ged Hall: 00:45:45

No, it's not. I'll crack on.

Simon Kerridge: 00:45:46

If you can retire at maybe 80, then it might be useful.

Ged Hall: 00:45:50

Yeah, I'm definitely not going that far. Right.

Simon, it's been absolutely lovely to talk to you. Um, but one final question, if I may. Mm. Um, which is this, this, I'm kind of landing on you. We haven't prepared this because I want to just get your in initial reaction. You know,

Simon Kerridge: 00:46:08

42,

Ged Hall: 00:46:09

42, is it? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That's your research impact hero is it?

Simon Kerridge: 00:46:14

Of course, everyone loves Douglas Adams, don't they?

Ged Hall: 00:46:17

Yeah, absolutely. So if I was to ask you for one name or two names in, in terms of that, uh, who you might want to see interviewed on that, uh, on that playlist series?

Uh, on the, on the playlist of Heroes

For of, yeah. Research Impact, hero Research Impact Hero.

Simon Kerridge: 00:46:36

Well, obviously Julie Bayley. Uh, David Phipps.

Ged Hall: 00:46:40

Mm-hmm.

Simon Kerridge: 00:46:41

Research impact Sarah de Rijke would be nice. Um, who else specifically for research impact? Um hmm hmm. Well you only said, you only said one or two names, didn't you? I'll come with three. You are? Okay. Yeah. And,

Ged Hall: 00:46:59

and why them?

Simon Kerridge: 00:47:01

Uh, well, Julie is, uh, the impact Queen. Uh, of course, uh, she's written a, a lovely, uh, book on, um, research impact or rather supporting research impact.

Um, David Phipps, I guess he must be the research impact King, I guess. Um, so he's based at, um. York University, not the University of York, but York University in Canada, unless I've got those the other wrong way round. But anyway,

Ged Hall: 00:47:29

I think that's right.

Simon Kerridge: 00:47:30

Yes. Um, uh, and he's done a whole load of, uh, work on research impact and has had funding from the, uh, NSF, um, to, to do that when, you know, when NSF were giving out funding, um, and, um.

He, he's quite often over in the UK as well, but of course you'd be doing as, as a Teams call, so that would be no problem. Um, uh, yeah, also, David's very funny as well, or rather he laughs at my jokes. That's not necessarily the same thing as it. Um. Yeah. Um, and, uh, yes, so Sarah de Rijke, very much on the, uh, academic, um, side of things, um, and would give you probably a different view on, on research impact.

Um, she's done a lot of work on, um, sort of citation based analysis and those sorts of things, but her interests are, are, are a lot broader. Mm-hmm. Um, so I'm not sure she was co-director of CWTS at Leiden, but she's. Now running a large, uh, European ERC as well running it. Was she? Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah.

Ged Hall: 00:48:38

Brilliant.

Well, thank you for those suggestions. I mean, the email has gone out to Julie. I've not had a response yet. Julie.

Simon Kerridge: 00:48:46

Ah, well have you, have you got her most recent email address? I.

Ged Hall: 00:48:50

Well, I've got a, i I I went for a private one 'cause I Okay. That hopefully shouldn't have changed.

Simon Kerridge: 00:48:56

Yes. Okay. But does she have the Ged spam box? That might be the thing.

Ged Hall: 00:49:00

Maybe that's, that's what it was. Oh God. Him again? Yeah. Possibly. Mm-hmm. Yeah, probably, probably.

Simon Kerridge: 00:49:06

Well just, just, just prod her again.

Ged Hall: 00:49:08

I will, I'll prod her on LinkedIn. I do, I love doing a bit of LinkedIn stalking. Right. Well, Simon, thanks for those suggestions and I'll try and make them all happen for you so that there's, uh, some content coming out on the podcast that you'd want to listen to.

Um, and, uh, I'll leave it to you to say goodbye to the listeners.

Simon Kerridge: 00:49:29

Uh, well in that case, good. Goodbye to the listeners. I guess. Um, I, I, I was thinking about throwing in a joke, but I thought I better not, uh, so I will just say it's goodbye from me and it's goodbye from the girls. That's the dogs, by the way.

Ged Hall: 00:49:44

Yeah, absolutely. Thanks Simon.

Simon Kerridge: 00:49:46

Thanks, Ged.

Intro: 00:49:48

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