(Episode 116) Knowledge, power, and partnership: Research culture beyond academia

Narrator [: 00:00:04

Welcome to the Research Culture Uncovered podcast, where in every episode we explore what is research culture and what should it be. You'll hear thoughts and opinions from a range of contributors to help you change research culture into what you want it to be.

Christine Wilson [: 00:00:24

Hello and welcome to Research Culture Uncovered. I'm Emily Goodall, a researcher development consultant from the University of Leeds. Today we are joined by Christine Wilson, Director of Research and Insight at the British Council. Christine also hosts the podcast series Our World Connected, which explores global conversations about culture, connection and empowerment. For today's episode, I'm looking forward to discussing research culture much more broadly and what that looks like in different non academic contexts. Christine, welcome to the podcast.

Christine Wilson [: 00:00:53

Hi, Emily, nice to be here.

Emily Goodall [: 00:00:54

Could you tell us a little bit more about yourself and your role at the British Council?

Christine Wilson [: 00:00:59

Okay, yes, well, I'll start with where I am now. So I'm the Director of Research and Insight, as you said. I have been with the British Council for just over 20 years. The British Council itself has been going for 90 years, but so I feel like I'm a fair mainstay of the place now. I joined in the office in Edinburgh, where I'm actually still based as a. What was it called? And it was called a governance coordinator. It was quite a junior project role and I've had a few different roles in the British Council ever since, mainly around the areas of working with civil society, working with, working with gender, what we now call non formal education. So very youth oriented as well.

Christine Wilson [: 00:01:36

And then I moved probably about 12 years ago into looking more at knowledge and research, firstly within that area of the British Council and then more broadly because where we were at the time, there were lots of really different and exciting pieces of research that were happening all across the different sectors where we work and all across the world, but they weren't necessarily being brought together. But I don't have a particularly standard background or it was, I think it's what people now call a wiggly career. So before I was at the British Council, I was a journalist for a few years. Up again up here in Scotland. I worked for a magazine called Holyrood, which is a political magazine. It's a bit like the house magazine, I think, in England and Wales, but I did a lot more work about civil society in Scotland and before that I actually worked in the music industry for independent record companies. I used to put bands on. So yeah, it's been a sort of a diverse career path for me.

Emily Goodall [: 00:02:34

Thank you for that introduction. Could you tell us a little bit more about the British Council? For our listeners who may not be familiar with the organisation.

Christine Wilson [: 00:02:43

Sure. So the British Council, as I said, founded in 1934, so we just celebrated our 90th anniversary, is an organization that, let's say, what's the best way to describe it? So its vision is about creating trust and understanding between the UK and other countries in the world, and that's for a shared goal of peace and prosperity. So trust and understanding is really core there. It was core in 1934, which was obviously sort of a challenging period. I think the government at the time recognized a lot of instability in the world, rising fascism and so on, and thought that one of the ways to counter that was through connections, through dialogue, through trust and understanding, and through doing so, both a degree of showcasing the best of the uk, but also about learning and understanding. So that point about mutuality has always been really central. So the core areas are still culture and arts. So connecting through culture and arts, whether that's individual artists or whether that's through institutions, there's a really strong focus on education and it's lifelong learning.

Christine Wilson [: 00:03:43

So from schools through to higher education, advanced education and so on, and work around skills, and then through non formal education, I talked about, which is more about young people sort of outside the traditional education spaces and the skills that they can develop there. And then in English, which is probably where quite a lot of people might have come across the council. So English language teaching assessment all around the world, and also then how English is used as a tool for dialogue and the changing face of the role of English in a multilingual world where research sits within that is really key for me. I want the British Council to be known not just for the brilliant activity that it delivers, but also for the knowledge that it has and the knowledge that it's built up over 90 years. So you get research within programmes and a lot of the programmes have research that inform what they do, that inform their learning, and then you have the sort of research that sits above that about understanding what works, about understanding the international context in which we're operating, about understanding soft power, which is being spoken about quite a lot at the moment because of the new Soft Power Council. So understanding what soft power means to the UK and fundamentally how it helps the UK achieve its goals and how it also helps the UK play the role it wants to play in the world.

Emily Goodall [: 00:05:00

You touched on soft power there. Can you dive into that topic in just a little bit more detail? Because it sounds like one that could be really relevant in research culture?

Christine Wilson [: 00:05:09

Yeah, I think so. So soft Power. Funny, I've been saying this to people. I've been asked to talk more about soft power, I think, in the last six months than I have probably in the previous 20 years, which I'm very, very pleased about, and in very, very different circles. So soft power is understood, slight, in slightly different ways, as I was discovering at an event last week, by different people, fundamentally. The term was coined probably, you know, a while ago by an American academic called Joseph Nye. And it's essentially about influencing. It's about how a country wields influence in the world, but not through what you might call hard powers.

Christine Wilson [: 00:05:40

So not through coercion, they're not through military coercion or economic coercion. It's about how people. How you influence, through trust and attraction. There is still the power element. Fundamentally, it is still about getting people to do the things you want them to do. But it's maybe better to think about it as getting people to work with you. How do you persuade people that you are a good person to work with? How do you not just get people to do what you want to do, but how do you get people to like the same things that you like, to understand the. Perhaps the world in the same way that you do, to recognize where the mutual value is? One colleague used this sort of cricket analogy about.

Christine Wilson [: 00:06:18

It's about rolling the pitch. It's not about wielding power, it's about the circumstances in which countries may wish to cooperate on an area of shared challenge or for a goal they think will be mutually beneficial.

Emily Goodall [: 00:06:31

Yeah, that really resonates with me. It feels like the ethos behind responsible research and innovation, that mutual learning and building trust with your collaborators and sectors outside of academia, what intersection do you think there is between that soft power, that idea of trust, and research culture?

Christine Wilson [: 00:06:52

So, fundamentally, if you look at education and research really broadly, I think the education sector, let's say. So with the education research sector, let's take in the UK itself, is a potentially huge soft power asset. Right? It's something that can generate a lot of trust for the uk, and there's a sort of classic way of looking at it, which is countries already look to the UK's education and go, this is great, we want to send our children here, I want to come and study here. And this is clearly somewhere that takes research seriously, where academics are welcomed, there is funding, there are great minds, there is a great space for collaboration, it's incredibly cosmopolitan. This is a great place to be. That makes the UK quite attractive. So that's great. So that Sort of that way of doing research, that sort of education, research, culture in and of itself sort of generates more and more attraction towards the uk.

Christine Wilson [: 00:07:40

I think the ability for international collaboration again does the same thing. Because there what you're doing is you're making the circumstances in which different cultures, different people can come together around a shared challenge. And as well as learning about what they're doing, they will learn about each other, they will learn about each other's culture and they will do that in a space on a sort of peer to peer basis. So there's a lot of room for that mutual respect. One of the points people talk about soft power and I spoke on the Our World Connected podcast a few episodes ago to Fumil on a Sakin at kcl and she's. This is her business, she works in the space of sort of peace and conflict studies. And she said, you know, soft power is actually is really strong in a way that hard power isn't. Because soft power should be sustained.

Christine Wilson [: 00:08:23

Because the sort of academic collaborations you're talking about, they can be incredibly deep and sustained and they can be quite life changing for people. That sort of impact people carry with them. That's why a lot of countries sort of measure their soft power through how many world leaders have been educated in country X or Y, because it's seen, if they've had a good experience in the uk, say in their postgraduate studies, they go back to their own country and they're forging their career. That sense of connection, let's say to the uk, which has educated many world leaders, that sense of connection will stay. And the idea is that you would. There, there will just be a degree more attraction, a degree more sense of turning to want towards that country than they would have been otherwise if they hadn't had that opportunity.

Emily Goodall [: 00:09:12

You said that soft power is understood in different ways and I think there's an element of research culture being understood in different ways by different people. How do you see research culture being understood outside traditional academic settings?

Christine Wilson [: 00:09:30

So I don't think we've thought about it an awful lot at the British Council, particularly because when I, when I started doing this work in research and I wasn't called research then, when I sort of had the job in about 2015, I think it was called knowledge and engagement, which is rather unwieldy. And I think the point I was trying to make was that there's lots of really interesting things that go on that happen as part of projects, but we tend not. Firstly, we tend not to look at them aggregated as how that knowledge all comes together. And also the tendency, I think, often outside the Academy is you see, if you do a piece of research, it's still a project, so it's still a thing that you're doing. So you do it, you do it well, you do whatever activity you have to do with it, so you, maybe you'll launch it, maybe you would have some sort of roundtable and then you move on to the next thing. It didn't have that sort of intrinsic value of knowledge, which is a little bit more intangible, because I think we didn't really know how to measure it and measure that impact. So one of the things I've always wanted to do is to talk about research culture at the British Council and therefore, yes, research culture outside the Academy. And my main issue has been how we value knowledge not just as a product that helps one particular process or program or policy or strategy, but how it helps the whole organization move forward with its thinking.

Christine Wilson [: 00:10:54

And also in a slightly more instrumentalised way, I suppose, to think about knowledge actually as a really, really important usp. It's an incredibly important value provider for the British Council. As I said, you've got 90 years of history, you're working in over 100 countries, you've got really experienced, brilliant staff. But often people don't think of themselves as holders and bearers of knowledge. Research itself can be quite elitist. I think it can be quite off putting the idea. I don't think people necessarily see themselves as researchers or is using research. So we have a community of practice in the organisation.

Christine Wilson [: 00:11:32

And I've said this isn't just for people who are doing research on a daily basis. If you're interested, if you want to apply any sort of knowledge in your work, you know, come and join this community of practice, come and learn about what other people are doing, come and hear about different techniques and different outcomes people have had. Because all of us, in one way or another at the British Council, can and should be using the knowledge that we generate through our work, through our partners.

Emily Goodall [: 00:11:57

What do you think are the kind of the ethical challenges and the power imbalances in working across all these different stakeholders? Because you've got a lot of experience of working on a global scale, but I just wondered if we could dive into sort of the ethics of that.

Christine Wilson [: 00:12:12

I mean, I would start with that point of the sense that when you talk about research, it automatically comes, I think for a lot of people with a sense of hierarchy, with a sense of being quite elite, it's quite Powerful. So there are people who do research and they're always a certain sort of person and they'll have a certain sort of background. Breaking that down is quite important. And I will say this because colleagues have heard me say this before. One of, one of the ways we talk about ourselves and the values that inform our work, which are really, really important to us. We talk about being expert and I've said I don't know if expert is really the way to talk about that because I think that frightens people. And it's also, you know, what are you, how many of us truly experts and in how many, how many things, how many of us actually really want to say I am an expert, whereas curious is sort of my word du jour right now? I said actually. But we can all be curious and we can all recognize that that curiosity is incredibly valuable in terms of a way to live your life and in terms of the way to work.

Christine Wilson [: 00:13:11

So I think just thinking just around that little bit of language with research is important when you think about ethical approaches. And then absolutely classically, we are also, like many organizations around the world, particularly who are working in the global south, have got to think about those hierarchies and those power imbalances and the sort of non extractive practice in research. Because very often colleagues who are working in perhaps the cultural heritage sector, who are doing a lot work in the Middle east and North Africa, or colleagues who are working on education policy and they're doing lots and lots with ministries and that might be right across sub Saharan Africa, they are working in development context. Are we always sure that we are thinking firstly about not being non extractive in that practice, that we're ensuring the communities we're working with are genuinely benefiting, are genuinely being been able to participate, that it's not just that we're not just using them for their knowledge and then writing up some very handy, handy policy papers and walking away. I don't think that generally happens, but that is a conversation. I've always said to colleagues, you know, have, have a word with yourself and just make sure you're doing that. How are you ensuring that the knowledge, the conclusions you're drawing, the analysis is getting back to the people and they are getting to engage with that in the first place. And I know this is a conversation that happens worldwide right now.

Christine Wilson [: 00:14:30

I think the other one, again, I don't think this is just about us, it's just thinking a little bit more about where knowledge comes from, where knowledge resides. So most of us, including colleagues who are situated all around the world, you know, have been educated in the global north in a certain sort of tradition about what good research practice looks like, where knowledge comes from, how you test it, how you write it up. The big challenge I think I have is while we've talked a lot about sort of decolonising our knowledge practice, being a bit more thoughtful, being more inclusive, bringing in more participatory methods, being more creative, recognizing that I said that knowledge resides in different places. I'm also aware that where our funding comes from and what expectations of funders might be will be a certain sort of practice, a certain sort of output, a very specified way of sharing that. And it's really hard to marry those two things and the expectations of your funders and it's perfectly reasonable that they set expectations when they give you money. And then our drive to do things slightly differently. I am heart. Well, I'm both heartened and disheartened when I talk to colleagues, both in NGOs but actually also in universities, that they are still are up against some of the same challenges.

Christine Wilson [: 00:15:49

So we're all working on this together.

Emily Goodall [: 00:15:51

Really like what you were saying about being an expert versus being curious. Because I think there, there just feels like a little bit of an overhang of the expertise following the pandemic and not trusting the experts quite so much. And I think we're still feeling the impact of that.

Christine Wilson [: 00:16:06

Yeah, but I also think it's, I mean, this is not to run down expertise and I have colleagues who certainly have really huge expertise in their, their own areas and I think that's great. You know, I like working with them and we need to do more of that. And I certainly think we should not be afraid of experts and exper. Should not be run down. I suppose for me it's, the word is quite intimidating for some people. It's either because of their own personality, because people don't want to go, oh, I'm an expert, I'm an expert in that it doesn't sit well with them. Or also because I think for a lot of people it, it doesn't, it's off putting and they'll go, well, I, I don't have that, I can't possibly have that. I'm not a postgrad, I'm not a PhD, I'm not any of those things, so I can't possibly be an expert.

Christine Wilson [: 00:16:49

So fine, you don't have to be an expert that you, you can still have significant amounts of knowledge in a certain area, in the area in which you live. If You've worked for the British Council. I don't know, there's 20 years in Vietnam. You will have seen, you know, how our practice of cultural relations has changed. You will see what works in. In policy, what works in practice, fine. If you don't want to call that expertise, that's fine. But that's knowledge.

Christine Wilson [: 00:17:11

That's probably really deep knowledge. And often in big organizations, particularly where you have quite strong hierarchies, that knowledge is not uncovered, it's not brought to the fore, it's not used. And that's to the dep. Detriment of that colleague and also to the organization and arguably to wider society. So I think if you're using language that puts people off, putting themselves forward to talk, to write, to do anything like that. If I say to someone, could you, do you want to write a short piece or a blog for the research pages? Because I'm saying it's for the research pages. People might go, oh, no, I couldn't possibly do that. Surely that's only for Dr.

Christine Wilson [: 00:17:46

Such and Such. A professor such and such. Going back to that point about research culture, what I want to say is, no, actually, anyone can do that. You know, I can help you maybe with the way you want to write it or the way you want to frame it. And let's dig down into it. I genuinely think you've got something to say because of the knowledge I know you've got over, you know, many years of working in your sector.

Emily Goodall [: 00:18:07

I completely agree. And one of the things that I talk to researchers, hear about is the value of lived experience. You can't put a price on that. And it really does open up your horizons as a researcher to really understand the problem that you're trying to tackle.

Christine Wilson [: 00:18:22

Yeah. And I think we should, we should do more of that. And again, I should say so. I'm a director of research. I was having this conversation with a friend of mine just the other day. So I'm not, I am, I am not a doctor. And people go, God, that's a bit weird. You're a director of research, but you're not, you're not, you're not a PhD.

Christine Wilson [: 00:18:37

Why would you be doing that Said, fine, okay. It's partly about the lived experience, it's partly about the role that I do. But a really salutary lesson for me a few years ago was being asked to go down to Durham University to give a talk to some students there about a particular project I've been working on. It was probably the first time I'd had to do this. And it was maybe about 10 years ago, and I was absolutely paranoid. I was completely petrified that they'd go, well, who are you? You're not an academic. We don't want to hear from you. And I was, I was confiding in the person who'd invited me down to do this.

Christine Wilson [: 00:19:08

I said, I don't know, I'm not sure I've got the confidence to do this. And he said, they'll be interested because this is your work. You've been doing this for two, 10 years. You've been in some of these countries. You've talked to people, you've, you know, you've delivered the work that is interesting and that has value. And I, I always try to keep that in my head when I have doubts about myself as, as I do, and I'm sure we all do. But also, as you said, to transmit that to others and go, yeah, you know, your academic learning is really important and that's great, but you need married that with the lived experience that you have. That's really powerful.

Christine Wilson [: 00:19:41

And I think that point about research culture in the organization and tying into that point about ethics is when we do research, who are we listening to? Whose knowledge are we respecting? And it's time for all of us, particularly again, when you're doing research outside the academy. So you're doing, as I used to be reminded often when I was first in this job, well, we don't just do research. We're not a university. So when you're doing research for practical impact, you want to make real difference sort of on the ground or in policy. You have to have that wide range of voices. You have to understand that you need to talk to the people and the communities where whatever policy or program you're delivering is going to have the impact you want it to have. Otherwise you will almost certainly miss the mark. If you think the only knowledge is the knowledge that is within your, you know, your fairly narrow circle, then you're going to run into trouble.

Emily Goodall [: 00:20:32

I completely agree. There's some really good points in there. How do you think research can be more equitable and more supportive of that diverse source of knowledge and knowledge production?

Christine Wilson [: 00:20:44

It is hard, I think, because of the restrictions that are either real or in our minds about what is expected when you do research. So in a way, for me, it's a little bit easier because the research that we do, that we conduct as an organization, is always either attached to a particular program or set of programs, or it has a very distinct sort of policy aim. In mind, it's going towards a particular set of stakeholders. So it's there. We can say we will update you on the state of soft power in the world at the moment. We will do some research about, you know, what different countries, you know, our sort of peers and competitors are doing right now. So we'll be situating our work within that wider landscape. I was going to say there's nothing we do that doesn't have that impact at the start.

Christine Wilson [: 00:21:27

Sometimes there is, and that's actually part of my team's job. I have a wonderful colleague, James, who heads up our Research Excellence Division. And, you know, part of that is helping people to go through that, that process at the beginning. So, I mean, I really boring answer to your question actually would be planning, good planning. If you want to be more equitable and inclusive, sit down at the start and think about how you are going to do that. So who are you going to be talking to? Who are your stakeholders? Classically, many years ago, I think the starting point would be, I want to do some research, right? And in whatever area people go, I want to do some research because I've got some budget or because I think I need to know something now. I think we've spent a lot more time in building up toolkits to say, take a step back, right? You know, is there a question you have in mind or is there a hypothesis you're wanting to test? Or are you trying to work out whether Project X worked in the way you wanted it to work? Okay, so be really, really clear then. Why are you asking this? Is it because you want to make the project better next time? Is it because you want to tell someone about it? Is it you want to make some marketing materials? You know, what are you actually trying to do? What is the impact you are trying to have? Don't go mad.

Christine Wilson [: 00:22:42

Don't say you want to change the world or you want a completely new law to be written. Maybe just think about what small step it is you want to do at this point and then who are the stakeholders that need to be involved in that? And that's where I think you can think about being inclusive, being equitable, because maybe your first idea will be to leap straight to the Scottish government or a particular ministry in the country you're working with, or a particular corporate you would quite like to work with in the future. That's fine. Think about them, what you need them to know, where are they, what sort of assets will they respond to and so on. But then think about all of those other Stakeholders as well. What role are they going to play in this? What are you asking them? What will they benefit from it? How are they going to be part of it? Being thoughtful, being intentional the whole way through and being quite open minded about who is actually in the sphere of this research. You know, be imaginative actually sounds like.

Emily Goodall [: 00:23:37

One of my responsible research workshops where I do actually get this. I actually get researchers to do broad stakeholder mapping and be imaginative, be creative, really think about who is going to benefit and who could potentially be impacted. So that really chimes with what we do here. I just wanted to finish by having a little look to the future. What would you like to see? Change in research culture outside the Academy and perhaps inside? How can we work better together as well?

Christine Wilson [: 00:24:07

Practical step I've taken on this front, which I probably should have mentioned at the beginning, is I have recently just joined the board of Spree and I know some of your listeners will be aware of Spree, which is a Scottish policy and research exchange, a thing I would like to see. And one of the reasons I'm really passionate about working with SPRE is that closer link between the academy and, and the world of policy. And then funnily enough, an organization like mine that's, I don't know, somewhere in between perhaps, in a way it's a little bit easier for me because as long as I've had a research role, I've never been able to do research purely for the joy of research. And I think there was a time in universities that that was, that was the case, you know, you were there to increase the stock of knowledge in the world and that was. That's really valuable. I know from friends of mine who work at universities, I know that sort of drive in ref and others about impact is growing and I know there are eyebrows raised about that, but in many ways for me that seems like a really good thing. Now I can only speak also from the world of sort of social sciences and humanities. And again, I'm also, I'm on the board of iash, the Institute for Advanced Studies and Humanities at the University of Edinburgh.

Christine Wilson [: 00:25:14

You know, an advanced studies institute where, you know, knowledge is absolutely sacred. But almost everyone who's engaging with I ash is really interested in that in the real world, you know, what does this mean? And it's been really fascinating to watch in Edinburgh the way that the barriers between an advanced studies institute and the wider city and the wider community are being broken down and what research looks like when you can sort of bring it out of the academy and into places where people are, you know, I like to think that I'm working with a few organizations that are doing that. I mean, fundamentally, I think that point about research culture so that, that we're all valuing knowledge just that little bit more. We're valuing knowledge as much as we value activity. It's a busy and pressured environment many of us are working in, and that pressure to feel like you have to be doing something. I would like people to recognize that knowledge is a thing that you are doing. It's absolutely fine. It isn't ivory tower, it's not a talking shop.

Christine Wilson [: 00:26:13

It's incredibly valuable. This is what drives us forward. So I think recognizing that outside the academy would be great. That point about more, and this probably does point slightly to more, more towards universities is being in places where. Where other people are. So breaking down those barriers and saying, you know, what opportunities do I have to engage people? There's been a lot of move towards, you know, book festivals and festivals of knowledge, and I think that's brilliant and I think there's lots of places that are doing that really, really wonderfully. But it's probably going on even beyond that, because I could look at the book festival in Edinburgh, which I love and adore, and I think it's amazing when you can see collaborations between the university and the book festival. But fundamentally, the book festival still has a certain sort of eliteness to it.

Christine Wilson [: 00:26:59

You know, is it completely open to everyone? Not because there's anything wrong with the way it's being run and it's right in the center of the city, but just the nature of a book festival, I think, will put some people off. You know, it still seems very othered. So I think what can we do to ensure that research and knowledge is going into different places and using language that people can understand? And I guess, finally it comes back to the point of spree is continuing to work on how academics, NGOs, policymakers, can share language a bit more effectively, can work together and not work together in a sort of grudging fashion, but really go, look, I think if we do this properly, we're all going to do really well. Hopefully the research will continue to be funded because you can see works having good impact. NGOs are getting the outcomes that they need and policymakers are getting good, hard evidence to help them craft the policies we all need for the future. And the more big, intractable, wicked problems that we're facing as communities, as societies, internationally, the more of that is definitely going to be needed. So no small Ask for me there for the future.

Emily Goodall [: 00:28:08

So many good points in there. I just wanted to ask one final, final question. How can researchers work more closely with the British Council?

Christine Wilson [: 00:28:17

I think it would be interesting for me. I mean, so there's all sorts of ways that academics can work with us. So there's, there are programs like our going global partnerships, there's the work we do in science that attracts researchers as well. So I think, you know, continue to check in with your British council, whether that's in the UK or wherever you are in the world. Absolutely. Look for those opportunities. Come along to events, I would say come along to events that maybe don't look like research events. Come along and, you know, and find out the things that are going on.

Christine Wilson [: 00:28:48

We do also have, you know, individual consultancies in terms of opportunities for people to work with. So do get in touch, do look out for those. That's all on our website. I think in the future it's, you know, where, where there's a sort of major challenge, particularly in the world that we work in. So say it's around soft, soft power and influence. I think I'm always open to have conversations with people, you know, what they think about that, what, what their views are. There isn't always, you know, I, I guess I'll have to caveat that there isn't always going to be paid work necessarily. There is sometimes, but not always.

Christine Wilson [: 00:29:23

But I think I'm always going to be open to have a conversation about a direction of travel someone might want to go or something they think is interesting. I'd really like to open up the space a little bit more for short form writing and blogging and so on so we can open up new minds. We have, we've had a program the last couple of years with beesa, the British International Studies association, for post grads in the area of international relations, where we offer a competition actually through sort of for the best master's dissertation in this area. I would like in future actually just to be able to open up again to new voices for people who talk about cultural relations, who talk about soft power, to be able to do again short form writing, a little bit of that bridging between the academic and the sort of the wider policy world. So I'm interested to hear how people would want to respond to that and I'm always, It's been interesting recently going to more being invited to more academic roundtables as a non academic or roundtables organised by universities where they're also leaning towards wanting to bring broader range of voices. So as well as having the academics who might work in international relations, they want someone from the British Council, they might want someone from Department Culture, Media and Sport or the fcdo. They might want, you know, private sector people who think about nation branding and brands and so on. And bringing all those people into a room together, you get some genuinely interesting conversations and it's that sort of connection I'd love to see a lot more of.

Emily Goodall [: 00:30:47

Brilliant. Thank you. I think what I'm going to do is I'm going to put some of those links in the show notes so any listeners who want to find out more will be able to check out the show notes notes and follow those links. Sadly, that's all we've got time for today. Christine, thank you so much for joining us. It's been a real pleasure talking to you. There's some real food for thought in there and I'm going to be thinking about the value of knowledge and how to instill that even more within my sessions. So all that's left for us to do today is say goodbye to our listeners and I hope you will join us for more episodes.

Christine Wilson [: 00:31:18

Thanks Emily. It's been lovely joining you. I look forward to listening to this.

Narrator [: 00:31:22

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