(Episode 117) Navigating the Academic and Professional staff boundary with Dr Wade Kelly

Intro: 00:00:00

Welcome to the Research Culture Uncovered podcast, where in every episode we explore what is research culture and what should it be. You'll hear thoughts and opinions from a range of contributors to help you change research culture into what you want it to be.

Ged Hall: 00:00:22

Welcome to the latest episode of the Research Culture and Covered podcast.

playlist. Now, back in March,: 2025

Pracademics are people who have experience of both practice and are also active as researchers and academics. The episode was based on an opinion piece that was published in Business and Society. At the time of writing that piece, I noticed that an impact hero of mine, Dr. Wade Kelly, had just moved into an academic role, senior lecturer at Deakin University in Australia.

The position he'd moved from was Director of Research Excellence and Impact at Monash University. This transition really appealed to me as a way of chatting about some of the challenges and benefits of being a pracademic, as well as finding out how he had navigated between what can sometimes feel like two distinct tribes within academia, those on professional contracts and those on academic contracts.

So Wade. To help all the listeners to get a sense of your career, can you give us the story of your career trajectory from your home in Canada to being that senior lecturer in the research development Researcher Development Academy at Deakin University in Australia and becoming a research impact hero of mine on the way?

Wade Kelly: 00:02:02

Oh, well, Ged, I mean, that's a, uh, uh, you can't start off a podcast with that kind a title because then you really set the expectation far too high, far, far too high. Uh, uh, what a, what a kind compliment, and what a nice thing to say. Um, it's a delight to, to be chatting with you today and, uh, to, to, and thank you for welcoming to meet the podcast.

Um, my, my journey, uh, you can tell from the accent probably, uh, I'm Canadian as you've just alluded to. Um, when I finished university, I had an undergraduate degree in education. With a social studies major and a drama minor. I taught for a very short period of time, high school and uh, uh, like for a year.

And then I ended up, uh, moving to another city. I was looking for work. I ended up working for a nonprofit. Um, uh, I was teaching adult learners, um, in, in the Drywalling. Um, it was, it's kind of a pre-apprenticeship program in Drywalling and, and tile tile. Installation, uh, programs. Um, and I learned a lot about, uh, how to work with various people from various different backgrounds.

In that, uh, in that time I learned how to, uh, work with people who were brand new to Canada. So, uh, recently arrived refugees, new, new immigrants. Um, I learned how to deal with, uh, work with people who had recently been. Released from prison. I learned how to interact with folks who had, uh, language, uh, developmental, uh, and other types of challenges, um, all while giving them, um.

Power tools and, uh, and, and, and blunt objects. So you, you have to, and I was helping to develop some of their skills around negotiation, conflict resolution. Um, so I don't like the phrase soft skill, uh, but that's, you know, what the, the, the curriculum was termed. And so that was kind of what this very early thing, I'm 22 years old and, or 23 years old, however old I was.

And I'm working with, um, a very different population. And then one day, uh, I, I. I really wanted to go see Elton John perform, uh, he was gonna be in Edmonton, Alberta, which is where I was living, and I found a single ticket online on Craigslist, and this woman said, I, well, I'll just drop it by your house. We both lived downtown.

She popped by my house and her name was Judy. And we ended up talking for two hours outside of my apartment, and we just, uh, just got along so well. I'm 23 at the time, and she had just retired, uh, as a professor in, uh, the nursing faculty. She, um, said, you should not be working where you are. You should go become an instructional designer.

And they're hiring someone. Uh, right now, uh, after I left my job, they hired someone and she's hiring more people. And so I applied for the job. I got an interview. I didn't get the job. A year later, the person who got the job went on maternity leave and they, uh, they, they re-interviewed me and I got the job.

Six months later, they made it to a continuing full-time contract. Um. The University of Alberta had an amazing program where you could become a, uh, uh, you could do master's level courses, uh, and they'd pay for it after you worked for the organisation for a year, and you could do, uh, I think up to four a year.

So every semester I was doing a course for my Masters for free. Um, in four years I completed a thesis based Masters. I became, I, you know, had, uh, a Masters in Adult Education. So I was doing instructional design work or e-learning development work. And then I got a, i, I moved from the Faculty of Nursing into, uh, the Faculty of Extension.

And I went from an e-learning specialist to an instructional designer. And one of the changes in that move was I went from being, uh, what's called in Canada support staff, which in Australia and the UK we'd call professional staff to, uh, a faculty based role. So with a Masters degree as an instructional designer.

Kind of like, uh, people often with Mi MLIS, masters of Library Information Science, um, they're often academic appointments. So I was going to a faculty board. I was sitting on, uh, uh, faculty based committees. Um, I didn't have a, uh, research, uh, allotment or uh, uh, uh, provision. Um, but I was expected to do teaching and service.

So it was a teaching based role. Uh, and the people I was teaching was other academics on how to teach. Alright. So then I, uh, des decide, well, I, I'm, I'm an offered after a trip to Australia, I'm offered to come to Australia to do a PhD. Um, I. I dunno why we decided, but we decided to just go for an adventure.

My husband one day came home and said, we should go for it. And I said, what are you talking about? Because so much time had passed since we decided not to go. And he said we should go to Wagga. So we moved, we sold up our house, we sold all our per possessions, and I went from having, uh. Pretty good salary, uh, uh, with a faculty based role, um, as a faculty member in Canada to being a PhD student, we moved around the world from a city of a million to a city of 60,000 with two suitcases and a bike, and it was, it is a huge, huge adjustment.

Um, I, I, I. On the Thursday before we moved, there was a big party, um, because the local magazine, Avenue Magazine, uh, I was one of the top 40, under 40. And then on the following Monday I was on an airplane leaving that town, which I still have a small amount of guilt about. Uh, but not a tremendous amount. I.

Ski to Wagga, huge identity shift again. So I think, you know, in our pre-interview we've talked a little bit about the, the, uh, identity formation and what does that look like? What does it look like to be an academic? What does it look like to be a professional staff? Well, what does it look like to go from being a professional staff to faculty based staff to, uh, to a PhD student?

Um, and then. After the PhD, I became a pro professional staff again. And so, uh, at the end of the PhD I was looking at community engagement activities of, um, humanities and social science scholars in Canada and Australia. I. And, and how their work in community engagement activities can generate societal impact.

Um, so that's where I, I kind of segued into the impact space. Um, at the end of my PhD I was looking for jobs in that last six months where you're desperate to find something. Um, I was making lots of phone calls asking people for coffees. One of those coffees was serendipitous that the person said, I'm actually organising, um, Tseen Khoo was the person's name, and now I have the, you know, six years later I have the pleasure of working with her at Deakin University, which is a delightful happenstance.

And, and I always say that higher education's a small, small village, and you're always going to end up running into people again. So make sure that. You don't burn your bridges. Tseen was delightful and wonderful and she said that she was organising a, uh, a, a panel on impact and was wondering if I'd be willing to be on that.

So I joined the panel on Impact and a week before that panel, they had posted a job, uh, that was going to be a senior coordinator research impact. The person who was hosting the panel was the person who was going to be hiring that role. So things kind of just worked out. I got the job, uh, there was some redundancies that person took a voluntary redundancy.

Uh, I went from being a senior coordinator, research impact to the executive advisor research impact. And then, uh, within, I. A couple years of doing that job at Latrobe University, I was kind of poached, uh, headhunted, uh, from Monash University. Uh, and I was appointed to the Director for Research Excellence and Impact, uh, which is under the Deputy Vice Chancellor Research.

Um. In that role I was gonna be responsible for, uh, uh, ERA, which is Excellence in Research Australia, the Engagement and Impact Assessment, as well as kind of uplifting, uh, impact initiatives across, um, the largest university in Australia. So Monash has 18,000 employees just. A behemoth of an institution and one of the top in the country and a big, big shift from Latrobe.

But I was still a professional staff, so I went from a professional staff member within a research office to a senior leader at one of the largest institutions in the country. I. So I was at Monash for a while and then, um, I I, I saw this position at Deakin that Jeanette Fyffe had posted, uh, about the Researcher Development Academy.

think is when we went live in: 2024

So a lot of my work is working with our research leaders around, uh, policy implementation for impact, things like that. And so why did I make the change? Uh, this is, I think probably at the, the, the, the heart of why you've invited me here today to talk about what does that look like? Um, I think the, the big, the big rationale was it was an academic role.

Um, and that I saw an institution that was willing to invest in developing not just their staff, but developing the conversation, uh, and the competency around how you, I. properly support and develop researchers at an institution. And so part of my job is not just developing researchers. Um, it's not just buying products off the shelf or reading some, some literature or, uh, just, you know, uh, talking to others and implementing programs, which is all great stuff.

And I don't mean to besmirch anybody else who's doing that in that space. That's, that's important. But also part of my job is to be contributing to this conversation. So I have a research allocation, and the, the goal is to, to develop a research program, uh, in concert with my colleagues, but also with people like yourself, uh, with the global leaders in the impact space, um, within the researcher development space within the field of higher ed space to be really thinking about, um.

What does the space need? How can we develop it? How can we make sure that, um, that it is rigorous and it is scholarly, um, that it's not just responding to, uh, the whims of, uh. Of fad and of whatever. So you know, when you've got things like AI coming that pose considerable existential threats to our our world, what does that look like in the context of developing researchers?

How can we make sure that we're doing that ethically, appropriately, sustainably? Um, across the career span to make sure that someone who's in the fifth year of their, um, of their, uh, early career researcher phase and they're getting ready to go to that next stage in their career. Um, but they're supported and that they're, uh, they're developing in appropriate ways.

So that's the big long story of my career trajectory and I'm really excited about Deakin's, um, approach to this. There's only one other university that I know of in the country, and if there's anybody else in Australia who has roles like this, please come tell me. 'cause we wanna build some community in Australia.

Uh, the, there's a, a unit that set Latrobe University that also has academic staff doing researcher development who are again, are expected to be doing research and contributing to the scholarship in the space.

Ged Hall: 00:13:14

Yeah. Fascinating. Um, so in terms of preparing for the interview, I was kind of looking at some of the quotes about you and, and some of the, you know, just to get other people's view and, and David Phipps, uh, another great Canadian, um, kind of put this one on your, I think it's on your website where he, um, 'Wade is unusual.

He's an unusual pracademic. He thinks like an academic and delivers like a practitioner. Wade knows the literature on research impact and contributes to the practice. From a scholarly perspective, I think of him on top of the research impact literacy pyramid at the level of critical IE. Excellent.' So it feels like,

Wade Kelly: 00:13:56

um, sweet man.

And I also like that he's referencing his own, um, his own framework in, in there. That's a very, very smart man.

Ged Hall: 00:14:05

Well, that's just, that's just part of the academic custom, isn't it? I'll try and I'll try and stick something of my own from my physical chemistry days in here if I can.

Wade Kelly: 00:14:15

Yeah, I'd like that. Let's do that.

Ged Hall: 00:14:17

Yeah, let's do that. Um, so it's interesting 'cause the, the, the quote reminded me, I'm a, I'm about to record another interview with some colleagues that we, um, let's say I'm just about to do it. We actually wrote a computer. Commentary piece around pracademia and how that sometimes gets seen as almost a silver bullet for, for research impact.

If you've got, if you've got a pracademic, they can do the translation from, you know, highfalutin academic, speak to, um, to kind of more. Uh, translation practice, um, language that, that appeals to people outside of the academy, which is a real oversimplification. But one of the things we called for in that commentary piece to kind of try and get past that simplistic, um, idea of pracademia.

Was the academic, the academic career stage needs to be more porous, and I think there's a lot of thoughts around that. So can, can you tell us about how you've managed that to, to kind of generate that porosity for you? You know, what, what have you done to kind of situate yourself so that you are able to kind of, you know, you've moved a number of times between one side of the, uh, of the osmotic barrier and the other

Wade Kelly: 00:15:31

mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, uh, I've got a really good PhD supervisor who kind of has a philosophy around not closing doors to yourself. So if you, uh, if you don't publish during your PhD, uh, if you haven't started to build a, uh, a, a grant track record, even if it's minor, small seed funding, local initiatives, um, then, then you've closed doors potentially to future opportunities.

So even during my, uh, uh, uh. Professional role. Uh, I wrote a book on impact called the Impactful Academic, um, that is, is, uh, crowds in impact experts from around the world. Um, it based on some of their research and some of mine, it's not necessarily a research output. Um, but it certainly helps when we're looking at, uh, applying for grants, which now I'm now in the process of doing to be able to point to a book that's in.

You know, nearly a thousand libraries around the world. Um, and that's often cited, uh, by other impact folk to say I've been contributing. I've, you know, uh, uh, uh, outputs in, in academic venues as well. Um, I. And so that's making sure I don't close the door at the same time. Um, I'm in, I, I, I'm trying to make sure that I'm developing a reputation.

Um, so I'm doing public outreach ish stuff, uh, you know, doing podcasts like this or, uh, the Amplifying, uh, Impact (Wade meant Amplifying Research) podcast with Chris Pahlow. We did, uh, an episode just before Christmas with him. Um. I, I think it's, it's a bit of, it's a bit of both. Um, doing visits to various universities and, and talks in various places.

Um, while at the same time, um, uh, trying to contribute to the professional community by, um, sharing, uh, you know, uh, uh, frameworks and things that I've developed, um, through blogs like the Research Whisper or the LSE, uh, Social Impact blog.

Ged Hall: 00:17:28

Yeah, it's interesting. You, you know, it reminded me of one of the other questions you often get asked by people at, uh, at early career stage.

You know, I've, I've gotta do all of this stuff that's in the kind of academic, um, kind of job description. And, and now you want me to do impact, which feels like it's slightly. Almost growing the academic job description. So I think can you, can you give some thoughts for how you manage that? All those competing, um, priorities across all the, you know, all that area of your job, you know, from the, from the being published and chasing grants and things like that through to the kind of still being in that space and, you know, almost testing out some of those themes, developing.

Wade Kelly: 00:18:13

Yeah, I, I'd say. I'd say there's no one right way to be an academic. Um, and so there's lots of pathways that you can take. Um, so that's the diplomatic answer. Uh, the, I, I think it's about, um, balance. Um, I've been on hiring committees as an impact expert for academic roles and, um. Unless the things that, unless, you know, if you publish 10 papers a year, um, in a year, uh, and you've got an incredible H index and everything else, um, but your academic committee is looking at, uh, who you've been partnering with and what relationships you've been building, um, and they're thinking about, um.

It depends on what the priorities, I guess, of that institution are at the time. So sometimes hiring the person with the High H Index is, is what's the motivating factor, but sometimes they're looking and going, actually we wanna build our CAT three funding track record and we need people who cat category three is industry and philanthropy.

Philanthropic research in Australia. Um, then we're actually looking at people who have been doing a better job of that. We are looking for potentially a lower publication rate, but a higher, uh, interaction rate. Um, being able to say, oh, actually they have a linkage grant. But it was with these three fantastic partners and it was a small amount.

But at this stage in the career, that's okay. We, so it is kinda like at the end of the PhD if all you've got a, is a thesis, um, uh. And, and you're looking at, uh, junior colleagues to be hiring the person that you wanna hire is the person who has the thesis, but also happen to get a pub, apply for a local seed grant from the National Science Foundation, um, and present it at Pint of Science or Nerd Night.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's a, that's a much more compelling person who is probably gonna be a better person to work with. Um. Potentially. So for me, in in my own trajectory, I'm, I'm always kind of thinking about how do I balance those things, um, without killing myself. I mean, that's the other thing is that I, I wanna make sure I, that, uh, I have a life.

Um, and I think it's that, you know, I. It's all about that, that balance. And that's one of the reasons that, uh, I've taken this role is this, no, I'm not teaching any undergrads. My teaching responsibility is teaching other academics. Uh, my service responsibility is both internal and external to the institution.

Uh, my research responsibilities, uh, allow me to start building a track record and be contributing back to that, to that knowledge. Um, but our super, our, our boss basically stresses that, you know, we can't be good. We can't be telling other academics how to be good academics if we're not being good academics ourselves.

And that means balance. Um, and you know, when you're on break, being on break, not answering emails, um, and really disconnecting things like that.

Ged Hall: 00:21:00

Brilliant. Yeah. So I wanted to kind of, um, ask you to think about the kind of external perspectives that you, that you've been feeling or maybe experiencing, you know, maybe people have been bluntly said something to you.

Um, in terms of how, you know, now you are at Deakin. Is there, have there been any of those kind of. Comments from traditional academics that you weren't really an academic or something like that, you know? So some negative perspectives, or have they all been really positive in terms of the, the different identity that, you know, different, uh, almost multiple identities that you have in comparison to what they might have.

Wade Kelly: 00:21:42

Um, I think when I was professional staff, like when I was the Director for Research Excellence and Impact, being able to go to a room and, and they'd often introduce me like, oh, we've got someone from Central coming. And you go, oh God, uh, thanks for the intro. Now everyone's got this, you know, their hackles up and going like, oh, we got some, some dude from the central who's gonna tell us what to do and we're gonna ignore them.

But then being able to have the cultural capital to say, oh, this is something I. Study and that I'm contributing to in my spare time essentially. Um, and that I am an expert in this area. All, all of a sudden you could see kind of personalities in the room, faces shift going, oh, actually this guy might be useful.

He might actually know some things, uh, might be helpful. Uh, my current role, because I sit, uh. In a central unit. Um, so we, under the Deputy Vice Chancellor Research, there's pro vice chancellors. Uh, my boss is a pro vice chancellor and the research development Academy sits centrally. So we're not within an institute, we're not within a faculty, and I think that that is a bit of a challenge just in having other academics understand how we're positioned within the organisation, what it look like to be.

There, like, am I really an academic, like do what? Do you still do research because you, you know, there's no faculty meetings to go to. And I was like, well, no there's not, because I'm not part of a faculty, but there's other meetings to go to. Um, so I think that's a bit challenging. Um, I. Uh, not having a disciplinary home, but trying to, because I've got, you know, the seven of us on the team, we are, we are a discipline, we are kind of developing each other.

Um, so we have a reading group, um, that's looking at researcher development in, in the context of higher ed. I'm bringing kind of. Impact lens and, you know, societal impact and engagement, industry engagement, things like that. Uh, other people are bringing that, you know, uh, graduate researcher health and wellbeing lens.

It's all part of a, a large continuum of what it means to be a researcher, what it looks like to be a researcher. Um. And, and I, yeah. I think that, uh, there is, uh, an appetite at Deakin to figure this out, which I'm really excited about. We've got another pro vice chancellor who's been tasked with thinking about what does the workload allocation model look like for, uh, people in these kind of third space academics, which I, I don't, I don't like that phrase.

I think it's very othering. Uh, but, uh, what does it look like? Uh, we, we have people, we have got academics. People with academic appointments that sit in the library, uh, within, uh, the teaching learning unit. Um, there's a, there's a whole. Cohort of people in the teaching learning unit. Um, so they, we exist and so how can we all get together and start helping others understand and helping us ourselves understand what does this space look like and what do we want it to look like, and how can we as an institution help other institutions who are grappling with this?

Understand what it looks like and also articulate the value of having academic roles within these spaces. Um, so there's lots of work to do. It's still early days. The, the big restructure was, like I said, last February, so we've got a lot of thinking, um, and thinking together to do, to get to, to that point.

But. Yeah, even the term, like you said, uh, before, uh, knowledge translators. Um, we've also, I, I like the, the literature on B boundary spanners. Um, but I think it's really important, like you said, that it's not just translation, that it's not, that's not the only role that, um, that I serve within that continuum of research and professional practice.

Ged Hall: 00:25:07

Yeah, it's, it, it is funny that it, some people love that term boundary spanner. I'm thinking of, uh, so one of my colleagues on the podcast, Ruth Windon, interviewed, uh, interviewed a lady from Sheffield who used to be at Leeds, uh, about her career journey. And she come on one of my, um, impact sessions, I.

Quite early in the pandemic, so we were all at home and this, that and the other. And, and, and the most interesting because she kind of just went, oh, I love the fact I've just suddenly realised I am a boundary spanner. I've always just thought of myself as a spanner.

So yeah, that was.

Wade Kelly: 00:25:43

That was, uh, that was great

Ged Hall: 00:25:44

for her.

Wade Kelly: 00:25:45

Um, so I just, and, and I think what's interesting about the boundary spanner stuff is like, the reason I started the, the beginning of this conversation about working, you know, uh, with, with people. I mean, I, I did my undergrad, I paid for my undergrad by working construction, and then I was working with people in the trades as an, in the pre-apprenticeship.

You know, I, I've worked with all these different people in different sectors and that has been really, really useful. When it comes to my job on a day-to-day basis. And I think, um, organisations understanding that lived experience and living experience of individuals coming to work at their institutions, uh, in the hiring process, in the development process is, is really important.

Um, so someone who's. And there's no one right way to be an academic, but someone who has, uh, went undergrad, honors, you know, master's PhD has a different, uh, life experience than someone who went back and, and worked for a while in different sectors and, and neither is better, but. Acknowledging that they're going to have a different outlook and they're gonna have different skills that have been developed as a result of that is, is really important.

And that's why, um, like you said, uh, I think in the pre, pre-interview that this idea of, uh, uh, impact academics or we've got industry academics, I. Oftentimes they're just seen as people who have contacts, but also that I'm leveraging, I've just had in the last week, two meetings with two or three of them actually at, at, at Deakin.

I'm trying to leverage their knowledge, their, their, their connections may be useful for putting a panel together, something like that. But what I really want is their knowledge.

Ged Hall: 00:27:20

Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we, we, we become quite, um. Limiting self-limiting. If we only think of one type of capital that somebody can give, can, can contribute to us.

So yeah. Great. That, that. You've mentioned that the reason she was excited about being a spanner, she was an engineer. So just start saying, so, so we've asked, uh, I've asked you about the kind of that external perspective, how, you know, what kind of pressures or enablers, um, you, you've been feeling since, uh, since kind of moving through the different, um, spectrum of academic to practitioner, um, throughout your career.

But, um, I'd like to think, uh, now in, in terms of the internal, um, so what's going on in your head? Are there. Are there things like imposter syndrome happening to you internally? Is it kind of like, Wade, what the hell are you doing in this meeting? And kind of like, um, is there anything, is there anything like that that's kind of internally limiting that you're having to deal with?

I.

Wade Kelly: 00:28:23

For sure. I mean, one of the issues is, um, the, some of the grant, um, uh, bodies have pretty strict definitions for what, uh, early career researchers considered. Mm-hmm. And it's basically, uh, when your pa whenever you got your PhD, the, the clock starts. And so with some grant schemes, that's a consideration because I've only, you know, I got the PhD in 2019, but I've had my first academic role in 2024.

But the clock started, um, and. You know, I've got the, the, I'm a senior lecturer, uh, in my first academic role, and I was never a lecturer, but Deakin recognized that I had. Publication record, uh, other track record that allowed me to segue into that role. Um, so there is a bit of that, uh, yeah, a bit of imposter syndrome.

Um, a bit of the, my academic track, my, uh, outputs are not as, uh. Incredible as some of my colleagues will be, particularly who are in faculties, particularly those who have had, you know, time, uh, for research and more time in, in their allocation for research than I've had. Um, and so yes, there's, there's that balance, but then there's the flip side of going, I'm I confident, uh, uh.

Person who, um, is pretty good at reading. I think, uh, the politics of the place and, uh, being able to, uh, deft, deftly, deftly, is that the right word? Navigate. I think that's, you know, part of a skillset that, uh, I, I've got that has served me well, uh, as I've moved through my career. But being able to navigate and.

Uh, I kind of just rely on, rely on that a little bit. Um, it's a good question though, and it's something we think about all the time. I mean, what is it to be in this space? Um, and, and what does it, what does it mean? So like, my, my colleague is a, in her previous career was a genocide scholar, and now she's kind of having, I think, uh, a bit of a internal conversation around what is it now to be a, a researcher, development scholar.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um. And, and how do those things complement each other? And, uh, again, what does that kinda spectrum look like? Yeah,

Ged Hall: 00:30:33

yeah. It's interesting, isn't it? Um, I mean, years ago when I was at Nottingham, we, um, we used some external funding to enable, um, some early career academics to come together as, uh, they call themselves the cross disciplinary research groups, uh, CDRG.

Um. I dunno whether it still exists at Nottingham. I'll have to have a look. Um, but what, what they, they, they invited a, uh, an academic from Warwick to come and talk to them about the history of disciplines and, and it, it's actually not, not very historical to be honest. It doesn't go back a long way, does it?

Um, and, uh, you know, so, so I think we've gotta remind people that. That disciplinary identity is never, is not settled and, and does does move over time. It may only move, you know, a little bit. It may move a lot like with your colleague, you know, that's, but that's fine because actually being a researcher is just putting a question against the really well-formed question against something you are curious about.

Wade Kelly: 00:31:37

I mean, um, yeah, so the discipline, I just, uh, uh, the discipline question is a really interesting one. I just read a book called Entangled Life, which is about fungus and, uh, absolutely fantastic. Um, the mycelial networks and all these things that we, and, and basically argues that there's, there's not nearly enough funding.

Given to this because it's not very well understood or very well named within universities. And it gives some examples in the history of universities that were not terribly well funded until they realized, oh wow, there's a real, microbiology is gonna be really important. We should probably fund that.

And so now, you know, technology, we the rise of the internet, you know, all of a sudden disciplines and sub-disciplines get created. You know, I used to. I used to work with a guy who was a, um, a, a lawyer for the government, and I helped, uh, developed a course with him on health and safety law. So it was for people who were in the safety and construction industry.

And he told a story about how lawyers, anyone could call themself a lawyer, right? There was a point where you just go, I'm a lawyer. And they go, okay, well I guess he's a lawyer. Um, but then eventually it was kinda like, well, that's not great. We should probably. You know, figure out what this actually looks like.

And slowly, you know, this professional associations coalesce and rules come into place and decisions are made. And now a lawyer is someone who actually has. Qualifications and can prove that they have taken a bar or they've, you know, taken some kind of test to, to be qualified. And, and this is the, the emergence of disciplines, right?

seen tremendous change since.: 2014

There were very, there was a handful of us, and now most universities in Australia have at least a couple people who have impact in their role title somewhere. Mm-hmm. Um. And so then what does it look like to crowd in or to understand what is a, what is a research impact? Professional, right? Mm-hmm. How, what does our identity look like?

And so then professional associations like ARMS, which is the a Australasian Research Management Society. Now there's a, a SIG, a special interest group, and you know, these conversations percolating around, well, you know, how do we. Do we need to have a a, a test? Do we need to make sure that people have a, a certain base literacy around what this looks like?

Um, so that's, um, I, I think part, it's kind of neat to be part. In, within an emerging conversation around a space. Um, and I think that the researcher development conversation, I think it's more advanced in the UK than it is in Australia, but I, I'm hoping that we can help, uh, facilitate that conversation in growing here.

And I do think that having people who have academic roles, uh. Not only do we have time to do research, but I think it offers some of ality, um, to it as a discipline from the perspective of other institutions.

Ged Hall: 00:34:37

Yeah, absolutely. It, it's, it, it, it's weird, isn't it, that we, we suddenly become accepted if we can give it a name.

You know, it's, it's almost simplistically at that level. So I'm gonna give you the, um. Open goal question for an academic, which is tell us your research plans and what, uh, what research questions are exciting you over this, uh, over this next year to 18 months.

Wade Kelly: 00:35:04

Um, uh, thinking a lot about, um, early career researchers, particularly in impact, um, there's some research that's been done about this.

Um, about the, the, the factors that are pushing, uh, early career researchers to not do impact work or start building that impact, um, trajectory. Um, so thinking about doing some research around, uh, with early career researchers around how they're, uh, thinking about that, how they're centering their, uh, careers, how they're possibly, uh, making strategic decisions, um, uh, uh, because of their, uh.

Individual motivations rather than, um, necessarily perhaps career advice that they're being given by others or their department chairs or whatever. Um, I, I met with someone yesterday morning for breakfast and she said, I just, I, if I can make one person's life better, then that's better than having a great H index And, um.

And, and that is not the case for a lot of academics. That's not the case for a lot of researchers. So it's finding those who are in that space and thinking about what strategic choices they're making, and then how can we as institutions support the folks who want to have that kind of a trajectory. And so what are the kind of, um, and this is based on some of the research I've done already.

Around community engagement, but what are the interventions? What are the supports? What are the development opportunities? What are the ways of celebrating? What are the ways of embedding policy? What are the ways of developing individuals, um, that support, um, that kind of a trajectory? So that's a big piece of work that I'll be doing over the next year, and thinking about how balancing impact with precarity of being an early career researcher, um.

Yeah. Yeah. Um, some, some interesting stuff, uh, that we've got a podcast series that we're kind of percolating on. We've got, um, some grants that have been put in. Um, so we'll just have to see how it comes together. Absolutely. Um, I'm a bit nervous because, like you said earlier, this is a, it is a change. Um, and having to think about what does a, what does a research plan look like mm-hmm.

Uh, is a bit scary. So I've been spending time in January. Writing, um, making plans, thinking about that. Taking some of my own advice about using January, which is quite slow in Australia compared to the UK. Uh, we don't have classes back in session till March, so we've got a bit of time to, to to, to, it is kinda like July in, in, in, yeah.

The Northern Hemisphere. So it's a nice period for us to just like do some of that deep thinking. Um, and so that's, that's where I'm at. Um, if you ask me that question in June, I, I suspect I'll have a better answer. I hope I'll,

Ged Hall: 00:37:39

well, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll do that, uh, we'll do that, uh, test again in, uh, in June then.

And the other thing, kind of final thing then, um, sure. Before I let you go and enjoy the rest of your evening, 'cause we're recording this, I. Well into the evening for you and, uh, and not too early in the morning for me.

Wade Kelly: 00:37:57

Um, no, it's fine. It was 29 to 30 degrees today and now it's 22 degrees, so it's really dropped.

So it'll be perfect for an evening stroll. It's

Ged Hall: 00:38:04

perfect. Oh, right. That sounds fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. With the dog.

Wade Kelly: 00:38:09

Of course. Absolutely sounds And he gets a second walk tonight.

Ged Hall: 00:38:12

Yeah. He's been stuck in

Wade Kelly: 00:38:13

indoors all day because it's 30 above so it's too hot to take a dog out.

Ged Hall: 00:38:16

Yeah, right. So, and they're

Wade Kelly: 00:38:19

poor little feet.

So your final question, stopping our feet. Yeah.

Ged Hall: 00:38:22

Final questions. So, final question, when am I gonna be at your inaugural lecture? So what are you, I dunno what that means.

Wade Kelly: 00:38:29

What is this inaugural lecture? This feels like a very UK thing.

Ged Hall: 00:38:32

Maybe it is, maybe it's, maybe it's European, but you know, if you become a prof Oh yeah.

You'll, you'll have a, you'll have this big set piece lecture that will be advertised all, well, I'm kind of assuming it might not happen Australia, but it gets advertised all the way across the university and kind of like, you know. People from the people from the department that you're in turn up. And uh, actually a colleague of mine when I was at Nottingham, he's now also at Leeds, he's just had his inaugural and really annoyingly, it was the same night as our impact towards ceremony.

I was like, how have you managed to pick the one 90 So

Wade Kelly: 00:39:13

inconsiderate.

Ged Hall: 00:39:13

It is, it's like I

Wade Kelly: 00:39:16

can't be there, Alex, your former friend. Anyway. No, I, it, it's an interesting question. Uh, when, uh, possibly never. I, I'm not sure that the aspiration is to become a professor. Um, uh, possibly one day. Uh, we'll just see how the career progresses and, and, and, you know, work.

Where can I do good work with good people? That's what it comes down to for me. Um, uh. In Canada. They, they have them people, but yeah, it's not really an Australian thing. Um, I'm happy though. If you want to invite me over to Le uh, we'll do a little study tour and I'll just give a lecture on whatever topic you choose.

That's fine.

Ged Hall: 00:39:55

We can do, we can pretend. We'll call it your inaugural.

Wade Kelly: 00:39:58

Excellent. You can gimme an honorary, that's fine.

Ged Hall: 00:40:00

Yeah. So, so do I sense that you are still not absolutely settled on, on an identity or is it, is it still open for Flex you, you're still holding the Never close any doors mantra.

Wade Kelly: 00:40:15

Uh, I mean, if the right opportunity comes or a different opportunity comes, that feels like the right opportunity at the right time, then I, I don't close that opportunity like it's, you know, to see what happens.

Um, I, I didn't think that I'd be a director, uh, at a major university and I didn't think I'd be a senior lecturer, uh, at another fantastic institution. Five years ago, but also when I was doing a PhD, I didn't think I'd have an impact role 'cause they didn't exist yet. So I, I, I don't close doors. Um, I I think one of the issues, um, to get really kind of, uh, uh, philosophical with you is I think that the idea, uh, the premise of the question is, is troubling or problematic in that it suggests that there's a right way to.

To, to, to get to a point or to achieve, or that there's this pinnacle of success that you will have been successful when you get to this thing. And some of the best academics I work with, um, are some of the, the most modest people who, um, uh, who, who I think are, are, have only gotten to be full professors through, um, uh, charm hard work.

Um. Uh, and, and, and just being delightful humans. So, you know, if I can get to be a professor by being a delightful human, well then maybe that is a good aspiration.

Ged Hall: 00:41:28

Well, you, uh, from my perspective, Wade, you're well on the way there. So, um, so thank you for giving up your time in, uh, in the evening in Australia to talk to me.

It's been an absolute pleasure. And, and can I leave you to say goodbye to the listeners? I.

Wade Kelly: 00:41:42

The pleasure was all mine. Thank you so much for your time and, uh, I just thanks again very much for doing this and for contributing to the community. It's, uh, it's, uh, deeply appreciated.

Intro: 00:41:53

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