(Episode 118) Coaching in Academia - Part 1: What Is Coaching and Why Does It Matter?

Heledd Jarosz Griffiths [: 00:00:00

A quick content Note, in this episode we will explore the practice of coaching in academia, including how we can support leadership, career development and wellbeing. The conversation touches on emotionally sensitive topics such as personal barriers, distress in coaching sessions, and challenges related to job insecurity and academic culture. While these are discussed in a supportive and professional context, we acknowledge that some listeners may find aspects of the discussion personally resonant or emotionally impactful. If the issues raised in this episode concern you, you can access support and resources in the show.

Intro [: 00:00:40

Welcome to the Research Culture Uncovered podcast, where in every episode we explore what is research culture and what should it be? You'll hear thoughts and opinions from a range of contributors to help you change research culture into what you want it to be.

Heledd Jarosz Griffiths [: 00:01:06

Hi, I'm Heledd, a Researcher Development Advisor at the University of Leeds. In this two- part special, we're diving into a topic that's becoming increasingly important in academic life - coaching. Whether it's used in leadership supervision or researcher support, coaching offers a powerful way to build trust, encourage reflection and to help people grow. I've been exploring this more deeply through my ILM Level 5 coaching and mentoring qualification and I'm absolutely delighted to be joined by Sian Taylor and Debs Hirst who are my coach trainers on the program. While Sian and Debs don't work exclusively in academic settings, they both bring a huge depth of experience in coaching across a range of sectors and their insights into people development in complex environments has had a big impact on me personally. I really value their approach. It's thoughtful, person centred and rooted in years of lived coaching practice. So let me briefly introduce them.

Heledd Jarosz Griffiths [: 00:02:10

Sian Taylor has been a professional coach for eight years with an earlier background as a cell biologist working in both academia and the pharmaceutical industry. She now coaches individuals and teams with a particular focus on leadership and takes a holistic approach to her work. Sian is also a coach supervisor and contributes to the design and evaluation of leadership development programmes.

Debs Hirst has been a professional coach for 14 years alongside her work as an organisational development consultant. Before setting up her own consultancy, she spent 20 years working in the public sector as an organisational development professional. Debs now coaches individuals and teams across a wide range of sectors and brings her coaching expertise into the design and delivery of learning programs. She also supports the development of other coaches through her work as a coach supervisor and lead tutor on the ILM coaching and mentoring qualifications. Guys, would you like to say a quick hello to our audience?

Debs Hirst [: 00:03:15

Hi.

Sian Taylor [: 00:03:16

Hello.

Heledd Jarosz Griffiths [: 00:03:18

So, in this first episode we're going to explore what coaching is and how it differs from other types of support like mentoring, counselling, or training. We'll explore what a typical coaching conversation might look like and some of the common models used. Then we might explore how coaching can support leadership and career development, including in higher education settings. And we'll also reflect on what it takes to develop as a coach and what advice Debs and Sian would offer anyone in academia who's curious about coaching as a professional skill. So, let's get started. Debs, I'll come to you first. How would you define coaching in your own words?

Debs Hirst [: 00:04:05

Thanks, Heledd. I think it should be a really easy question to answer, but it is really quite difficult because I think the thing with coaching is it's very bespoke to every individual. So how I describe coaching depends on the context in which the person's come to me for coaching. So, I try to make it more about how, how they will understand what coaching is. But in essence, I think in very simple terms, I like to think about coaching being focused on helping somebody reach their potential, and it's about unlocking that potential within them. It's about helping them to identify what it is that they want to achieve, what their goals are. And sometimes people don't know what they are. They come to coaching and they know that they want to access coaching, but they don't really know what it's about.

So, there's something about explaining that to them and working that through, but then helping them to identify what their goals are and then working through those goals with them. But always with the focus on this is led by the coachee or the coaching client. And I think it's really, really important that they are then enabled to take the action that they want to take. So, in terms of sometimes when I describe coaching to people, I will say, so in everyday life, we're really, really busy. So, we get up in the morning, we do whatever we need to do in the morning, then we go to work. We're really, really busy at work. We don't really have much thinking time. And then when we get back from work, we're all busy with home life, whether that's animals, kids, family, you know, all the different things that we've got. And then it's almost like Groundhog Day. We're back up again the next morning and we're doing that what coaching does. It gives you that pause point. It gives you that time to stop and think and reflect purely about yourself. And in everyday life, we don't often afford ourselves that time. So, what I provide as a coach is time and space for people to be able to do that, to be able to reflect on what things are important to them, but actually for them to be able to really, really work out, what do they want to achieve? What are the goals that they want to achieve? And then through my questioning and listening and support and challenge, I'm able to help them. Help them through that.

Heledd Jarosz Griffiths [: 00:06:00

That's fantastic. Thank you, Debs. I think it really is about creating that space, just that time, like you say that pause. But actually, when given that opportunity, it can just have a huge benefit. And I think a lot of people don't necessarily realise that. Sian, have you got anything else to add to that or have you offered perspective on it?

Sian Taylor [: 00:06:21

I absolutely agree with Debs that the reflective space that's really focused on the individual who's coming to coaching is hugely beneficial. And it is something that we might be thinking about what we want to get out of life or things that we want to achieve, but to actually take the step back and think, well, what's stopping me? And the coaching space offers that opportunity to go actually, what's really stopping me do what I want to do and how do I get there? And so very much what Debs were saying and building on it. It's a chance to examine and explore what might be those challenges or barriers or things that are getting in the way, and think about is the direction that you're heading, the right direction, and then thinking about the plan that you can put in place to try and achieve that. And that, for me, is where that sort of deeper thinking space is where coaching really adds value.

Heledd Jarosz Griffiths [: 00:07:26

Thank you for that reflection, Sian. So, in terms of coaching, are there any sort of models or frameworks that you tend to use or turn to, to help work through the process?

Debs Hirst [: 00:07:40

So, my kind of go to framework would be the grow model, which is a model that was founded predominantly by Sir John Whitmore, who, in our version of coaching, is one of the kind of founding fathers of that version of coaching. And I use that, and I say a framework. I use it really lightly as a framework, because what the grow model does, and I'll talk you through the different stages, is that it really helps to focus that conversation, so it makes it a conversation with purpose. A lot of the time when people talk about coaching or I tell people I'm a coach, they'll say, oh, it's just a really nice, fluffy conversation. And that's kind of it. It isn't it's very much a conversation with purpose that has going to have outcomes and actions at the end of it. So, when I use the framework of the GROW model, I'm really looking to identify a goal for the person that I'm working with them to identify what they want to achieve. So that's the G part of the model and it's really about them, helping them, supporting them to focus on what do they actually want to achieve.

And that can be a longer term goal or it could be a shorter term goal. So it might be just a shorter term goal for the actual session that I'm working with them on, but it's led by them, it's not led by me. It's what do they want to achieve? They are part of the model is the reality. So that's the bit that Sian was just talking about previously where actually we start to get into the conversation around what's actually happening for that person now, raising their awareness to what's going on for them, what are their barriers, what's stopping them from achieving what they need to achieve and also helping them to get some different perspectives. So, what we're trying to do there is we're trying to just ask questions from lots of different angles to just get them to really have greater understanding of what their situation is and actually what's in their control. What can they actually do something about here? We're also talking about making people more resourceful. So, I truly believe, and I believe every coach that works in this profession believes that The Coachee absolutely 100% has the solutions to whatever issue they're coming to.

But it's about unlocking that. And it's in the reality part that we really start to explore that and lock that part. And then when we explore that reality, what tends to happen is the coachee starts to come up with some solutions, they start to come up with some options. And as a coach, that's where I would then help them to unpick those options. What can they actually do? Again, I'm not offering advice here, I'm not offering guidance. I'm just questioning and listening and asking questions on the back of what they've already shared. So, when they start to explore their options, which is the O part of the model, that's when they start to decide and take ownership of actually where do they want to go with this? What do they actually want to do? And then in that final part, and I think this is the bit that I always think gives it a Conversation with purpose angle is that's where we're getting the person to really decide what is it that they will do. So the W part can be for what, how, sorry, what who.

And really getting them to think about what will they do, how will they do that, what might get in the way of them being able to do that and what is their next step. So, it's really about moving to that action. I say I hold that model really lightly because it's not a case of sitting down with somebody and starting at the G, you know, moving through the goal, then nicely into reality options. That would feel a little bit forced. And what coaching is, is a conversation. I think it's really important to remember it's not a forced process, it is a conversation. So that model is very fluid. So, you might start by asking some questions around the goal but actually you might need to explore the reality before the person is even clear around what they want to achieve. So, we can move backwards and forwards within that model. So, we do hold it lightly as we have the conversation, but it sort of guides the conversation and gets the person to an interesting point at the end.

Heledd Jarosz Griffiths [: 00:11:13

Fantastic. Thank you for that, Debs. Actually, just reflecting on you talking about the grow model. Obviously, I'm going through the coach training at the minute and I think when I first came across it I thought I've got to stick to that goals reality options way forward. And I thought you just have to do it as a linear path, but often going back and revisiting that goal, you know, it does. It kind of made me realise, okay, so that's how it works. It doesn't have to be this linear process.

Heledd Jarosz Griffiths [: 00:11:38

And Sian, do you want to add anything? Are there any other frameworks that you use or any other tools or resources that you find really useful in that coaching space?

Sian Taylor [: 00:11:48

So, I think one of the principles that I really hold on to and is really valuable when I'm working with people is the idea of helping raise someone's self-awareness. So, I think often when we come to coaching, we've got lots of things going on, we've got our own ways of working, our own habits, the things that we'd like to achieve. And actually, sometimes we're not necessarily aware about where some of these habits and our experiences actually shape what we're doing in the here and now that might, might get in the way of what we actually want to achieve. So through coaching for me there's something around how I can help somebody become more aware about maybe some self-limiting beliefs. For instance, the things that people think about themselves or say about themselves that might stop them getting in the way of reaching their goals and how they can use that increase self-awareness to think about or how might they get. Get around some of the barriers and challenges that they're experiencing. So, so there is something for me around how I can help them become more aware about themselves, about some of the things that they might be thinking internally and how that affects them in the way in which they might deal with some of the situations and challenges. That's the stop them getting to what they actually want to achieve.

Heledd Jarosz Griffiths [: 00:13:24

That's really insightful, Sian. It made me think about the role our values can play in all of this. I think often our core values are sort of deeply embedded and can really shape our beliefs, including those limiting beliefs as you, as you've just mentioned. I think because values feel so fundamental to who we are, they can be quite hard to challenge or shift even when they're influencing us in a way that we're not fully aware of. So I think part of the coaching is also creating that reflective space to notice how our values might be guiding or sometimes even constraining some of our thinking and actions. And I guess from there it opens up that possibility to explore whether those beliefs are still actually serving us in a way that we want them to.

I think we've had a really helpful overview of, you know, what coaching is and some of the frameworks that can be used within coaching. But some of the listeners now might be wondering, well, how is coaching different to other kinds of support that they might be familiar with? So how would you see coaching as different to things like mentoring, therapy, counselling or training? So Debs, I'll come to you for that if possible.

Debs Hirst [: 00:14:36

It's a really great question, Heledd. I think it's one that it's really important that when you first start working with somebody in a coaching capacity that you really expect. Explain this, because I think the words often get confused. So, the word coaching is used so much in different organizations with different meanings. So really defining what we mean by our version of coaching and what, what we're there to do and what we're not there to do, I think is really, really important. I think the, the biggest challenge in all this is that a lot of the skill set and a lot of the things that are involved are very similar. So, you know, when we talk about coaching, we talk about being really good at the active listening. We talk about questioning, which you could absolutely safe for lots of other different interventions as well.

Certainly, with mentoring and with therapy, with counselling, with training, you know, we're going to be using all of those same skills. We're just using them in a slightly different way when we're coaching. So I think the big difference for me between like coaching and mentoring, for example, is that in mentoring there is a place for advice in that because actually, as part of being a really good mentor, you are going to be sharing knowledge, you are going to be sharing your expertise, you are going to be helping and supporting somebody in that way. Whereas as a coach, that is not why I'm leading with. I'm not there to give advice. I'm there to truly trust that the coachee has all the answers, which they do, and to try and tease those out of that person and help them to find those solutions, to not give them those solutions. So, I think that's a really big difference between coaching and mentoring. I think with coaching and mentoring, a lot of the other skills are very similar, you know, and a lot of really brilliant mentors use a coaching approach as well.

And I know that's the some often discussions we have on our programs around, you know, we are using all of those skills in our mentoring. But actually, I think the biggie for me is, is the advice given. I think when we move into training, again, it's probably more about advice given in training. People don't know what they don't know, so they're there to learn. And so I think it's really, really important that you are doing that in training. Again, in coaching, we, we wouldn't be doing that. We wouldn't be giving that knowledge. When we're coaching somebody, we're taking it at face value that that person already has all the knowledge and training they need to be able to make the decisions that they need to make through the coaching process.

So that's where we're meeting people at. And similarly, that's the same with, with counselling or with therapy. We want, when we're coaching somebody, we are taking it that they are in the right balance for them. And where actually where a counsellor or a therapist might be more involved with somebody is when somebody isn't in that correct balance for them. And what they're doing is trying to help restore that balance. Whether that's emotionally, whether that's come from trauma, whether that's come from lots of different things, that's what their, their role is to do. And we are really clear in a coaching and I'm really clear ethically from a coaching point of view. That's not my job to do that.

So where it sometimes can get a little bit of a grey area is that often coaching can make people. Can. People can become emotional in coaching because it's the first time they said something, it's the first time they've said something out loud, potentially. Or it's the. I might be the first person that they've shared something with. And so, it can get emotional at times. But often that emotion is part of the barrier that Sian talked about earlier. And once, once they've shared that emotion, they're then able to move forward.

So, we talk about coaching being very much future focused. And so that emotion is okay. If that person gets stuck in that emotion or if that emotion feels a little bit disproportionate to what we're talking about, that's where I might start to think, actually I'm potentially not the right person to help that person. So that's where it can. It can differ. I think the other difference is as well, in coaching, we might need to explore somebody, what's happened in the past for somebody, but we don't stay there and we certainly don't analyse that and we certainly don't go through that in a lot of detail because that's not my area of expertise. But sometimes the things that happen to us in the past inform how we are in the future, so we might need to do that. But where a counsellor might potentially say, stay in that past bit and really work through that with that person, that wouldn't be what we were doing as coaching.

So there are some kind of grey areas, I think as part of, and as you will know, Heledd, as part of the program and the qualification, it's really important that we explore what those boundaries are. There are lots of similarities between those. But the big, big difference for me is around the advice giving. We don't do that in coaching. But also that coaching is about that future focus. It is about getting somebody to where they want to be and it's where they want to be, but it's also that individualised learning. So it's about them being really clear about what they want. It's not a kind of one size fits all programme. It's about individualised learning for them.

Heledd Jarosz Griffiths [: 00:19:03

Brilliant. Thank you for defining that for us. I think when you talk about the advice monster as a coach in training, it is really difficult to go, oh, I just want to tell them what to do and to actually hold back that perspective as well as sometimes crossing over those boundaries as well. Sometimes it's really difficult to kind of work out where do you stop? Yeah. So I mean, Sian, do you want to add anything to that? I know you're quite holistic coach and, you know, you allow the space for people to explore emotionally. How do you keep those, you know, boundaries in place?

Sian Taylor [: 00:19:39

I think that's one of the things that as a, as a coach, being really clear about your boundaries is, is really important. So, on the qualification program, we talk a lot about the code of ethics, and there is a global code of ethics for the coaching profession, which a range of coaching associations have signed up to. And as a professional coach, I think it's really important to be aware of that. So, for me, the thing around boundaries is that we then know and we can talk to the people that we work with about where our training can create the space for somebody to learn, but that outside of that, we can then signpost them if we believe that they need other interventions. And when we talk about ethics, we talk about the space as a coach where we might find ourselves in a bit of a dilemma, what we call an ethical dilemma of actually what's right for this person. And am I the right person to help them with this particular situation? And being aware about what's right in the coaching space from a professional perspective and a professional standard is really important to help us navigate actually what is the right thing to do. So there may be things that we haven't yet touched on which come into confidentiality, for instance. So coaching conversations are boundaried by a level of confidentiality.

However, we have to be clear as coaches about what that level of confidentiality is. And that can also come into. Well, how does that overlay? If somebody becomes, for instance, incredibly emotional and then starts to describe that actually they might be in a state of really quite strong emotional distress. So if I was then really concerned about somebody, I would have a duty as a, as a professional coach to check in, see how they are, but then, you know, really making the judgment call, is this person okay? Or do I need to take further action? And so this is where it becomes really important about have I clearly defined the boundary of what's okay within the coaching space? Do I need to take further action which might involve other people outside of the conversation, whilst recognizing that I will have spoken to my coachee about the fact that our conversations are confidential? So it's navigating and being really clear where we are creating a space for our coaches to feel, feel that they can talk about things they may not have felt okay talking about with other people, but also Recognising where we have a duty of care. If, for instance, and this is just one example where we are starting to become concerned about our coachee because perhaps they are in a space where they may be more emotionally distressed and we need to think about another intervention.

Heledd Jarosz Griffiths [: 00:23:01

Yeah, thank you for clarifying that. I think one thing I guess we haven't really mentioned is at the start of the coaching conversations, we have the kind of contracting session, which is an opportunity to kind of lay out all of these things and to talk about confidentiality and these boundaries so that they're clear from the offset of the coaching conversation what that really, truly looks like. And that, you know, there might be occurrences where you need to breach that confidentiality. And as part of it as well, I'm just going through the process myself now to, you know, sign a coaching agreement so that the coach and the coachee are aware of, you know, what their responsibilities are within that. Within that relationship. So, yeah, thank you for bringing that to the table. I think it's a really important thing to talk about in the realms of coaching. So now we're going to shift a little bit more into the academic context.

Heledd Jarosz Griffiths [: 00:23:50

So, Sian, you began your career in academia as a cell biologist, and I imagine coaching may not have been something that was visible or even available in that space at that time. So, looking back, do you think coaching could have made a difference to your experience or to the research culture that you were part of?

Sian Taylor [: 00:24:12

Absolutely. Thank you, Heledd. I think it's worth saying that I had two stints in academia, and I'm going to reflect on both of those stints. So, the first stint was after completing my first degree. I then undertook a PhD and did a very short stint as a research associate. And certainly, at that time, coaching wasn't present. I didn't come across it within the academic setting. And I think for me, what I realized in that space was I felt where I needed to deliver on certain expectations, particularly in doing my PhD, but also then when I was doing my postdoctoral research associate post, where I was being told what to do yet having to think independently.

Sian Taylor [: 00:25:08

And there was almost this dichotomy for me about being told what to do. And almost now when I look back, being micromanaged in some ways, when I was also being given the other message that I needed to be independent, and I needed to stand up for myself and define myself independently of the people that I was working with. And I found that a really difficult thing to make sense of. I then did a stint in the pharmaceutical industry. Where started off as a lab-based scientist, then took on some management responsibility and my first introduction and I think this is where coaching had started to become more present within the workplace. I did a coaching skills for manager course and then when I left the pharmaceutical industry and took my second stint in academia, it started to become a bit more present that actually coaching was starting to make a little bit of inroads into the academic environment. But even so, this tension about, about how you empower people whilst also helping support them without the micromanagement and really enabling them to think more critically and express themselves and establish themselves, that still for me was a space that different people's experience was very much dependent on who they were working with at the time. And over the eight year period in my second stint, I started to, to see how coaching was starting to create a space where more line managers, more group leaders, team leaders were starting to recognize that it wasn't about the micromanagement and the control that they needed to have over a group and over people, but that coaching could help them give the guidance and support to develop individuals and add in that sense of empowerment and help individuals feel like they had that balance of support and challenge in a positive, constructive way. And I think that for me is, I'm still seeing it as it percolates through in the different academic institutions that I'm working with. Where it is a shift, I think from particularly a mindset where your reputation as an expert in a field really matters so strongly that your ideas and therefore how that percolates out into the work that you and other people around you in your group do is so strongly held that actually letting go of some of that control can be one of the toughest things I think for academics to do. So that for me, I think is one of the things that's really interesting to see a shift in and to help be a part of that.

Heledd Jarosz Griffiths [: 00:28:32

Thank you for that. I think a lot of our listeners who are in the academic environment can really relate to what you're saying there. I can certainly relate to that kind of dynamic, that shift from trying to be independent within your kind of workspace, but then, you know, also feeling under the control of someone else because they've got the funding. The funding is often, you know, often that limiting factor and you need to make sure that the research is going in a particular direction. So that balance is really quite difficult. Alongside that, you know, the kind of career journeys within academia in terms of, in research, you know, there isn't a linear, there is no linear path anywhere really, but it's, it's quite, can be quite a complex environment as well. And actually, one of the areas we've been focusing on leads that we is how to have these meaningful career conversations, especially with researchers. And it's something that I've explored in a recent episode with my colleague Ruth Winden. And I'll refer to that in the show notes to our listeners. And in that we talked about the importance of helping researchers feel heard by creating that space for reflection and dialogue. You know, really bringing back to that kind of coaching ethos. And, you know, the idea of creating space really resonates with coaching and, you know, I want to bring that into the conversation a little bit more now. So, to Sian, maybe a follow up from Debs, you know, from your perspective, what are the benefits of using coaching approaches in leadership development or career conversations, you know, particularly within these academic or research environments?

Sian Taylor [: 00:30:13

I think picking up on one of the points that you made just then, Heledd, one of the things that, particularly in an academic environment is that there are a lot of people in the space where there's a huge amount of uncertainty. If you're in your early stage, career posts are fixed funding, they're limited and it's always about the next step and thinking about that and there's huge uncertainty about where that might be, whether you might have to move wholesale to a different country or a different part of the region and what that means. And actually, the lack of stability and that ambiguity about where you might be going can be hugely unsettling. So, for me, in terms of thinking about career coaching conversations, I think the thing around coaching is where the focus is on that person and thinking about actually what we can do as coaches is to help them think about what really matters to them and what's within their control. Where do they want to go and how might they try to achieve that? What is it that they are able to influence and do something about? Because I think within complex environments there are so many moving parts that it can feel overwhelming, and we can feel like there are so many things going on and actually a lot of that is outside of any one individual's control. So, coaching can really help focus an individual on what can they do, where can they go and helping them unpick the ambiguity and uncertainty so that they feel that they've got a bit more sense of control and direction. I think in terms of leadership, it's also that thing around not only developing that person's sense of self awareness about who they are and how they are as a leader it's also about then thinking back to one of the points that we were talking about, how they can empower other people whilst also being mindful about what they need from their group and from the people that work with them. So if they are grant holders and they have a responsibility and accountability around that grant funding, well, how do they still develop people on their own individual career paths whilst those projects deliver to what they need to do to be able to continue their own career paths? And it's within that that they can then start to unpick, well, what's my role in this and where are the boundaries around accountability, accountability for me and accountability with the other person? And how do I help empower that person to have accountability whilst also still being able to deliver within the wider phone framework of what they need. So that complex and uncertainty, I think, is ever present both in career conversations as well as in terms of leadership development, which really comes into play within the academic environment.

Heledd Jarosz Griffiths [: 00:33:56

Yeah, it's really complex, isn't it? You touched a little bit about on some of the qualities there that you might need as a coach in terms of being able to empower your, your coaches or within those kind of career conversations or within a, you know, a separate kind of coaching conversation. So, from your experience training other steps, you might want to come in here, you know, what mindset or qualities do you think are most important when it comes to, you know, being a coach?

Debs Hirst [: 00:34:24

I think, I think being open minded is really, really important. I think so. So often when, when we are coaching people, you know, we are really thinking about we want to help people. And usually in everyday life, when we want to help people, that usually involves some kind of advice giving. You know, you talked earlier about the advice monster. It's always there, ready to kind of rear up. And so this is about us remaining open minded. So I think some of the skills that we need to have as coaches is we need to remain open minded, we need to remain curious.

So actually what that person's experiencing isn't even if we think we've experienced something similar or we know what that person's going through, we don't because. Because we are not that individual. So I think leading with that curiosity, asking the questions with that curious mind, I think we've got to show that empathy, we've got to be able to help and support people and I think support's really, really important. We need to build that relationship and have a really good rapport with somebody, but we also need to be able to challenge that person as well. And challenge their thinking. So maybe not challenging the traditional sense of how people perceive the word challenge, but in a coaching conversation, people are coming to take a step to move forward. And with that, we need to be able to challenge. So I think as a coach, we need to be able to offer that challenge in a way that's going to help that person to move forward. And I think it's about us really, really listening. You know, one of the biggest skills we always talk about in the programs that we run is actually in everyday life, how often are we actually really heard? How much does somebody really listen to us? We think we're listening. And I'm going to pull my hands up. I'm completely guilty to some of the cosmetic listening. I absolutely. I'm a human being. But in the coaching space, we really need to listen to people, and we really need to listen to understand what they're saying, not so that we can come up with a solution, but really so that we can come up with the right question for them. We're not listening to respond like we do in everyday conversations where we wanted to jump in and say, oh, well, actually, I think this, or actually that happened to me. We're holding back from that. So really, truly listening, I think, is one of the greatest gifts we can offer as coaches and potentially one of the hardest skills in that space to kind of master so that we're not trying to jump in and give that advice.

Heledd Jarosz Griffiths [: 00:36:35

Yeah, absolutely, Debs. So, in that space, when you're talking about active listening and, you know, it can be really, really challenging to do that, to actually stay still and really actively listen. And something that I always found that I was worried about in myself in the coaching was actually being able to remember what people are saying. And I always like to. To take notes. But then actually, what I've realised is that when I am conscious about trying to take lots of notes, that I'm not actually actively listening. And when you actually really practice that method of active listening, you are more engaged in the conversation, and you are more relaxed, and you absorb more information. And I think one of the techniques you've taught us about how to help with that is to kind of repeat some of what the. Or summarise and paraphrasing what the coachee has said to help you then guide your way through those coaching conversations. So, it just reminded me of some of that as one of the kind of key things I found really learned from. On how to kind of, you know, master that skill a little bit better. Sian, do you Have. Do you have anything to add to that?

Sian Taylor [: 00:37:42

Oh, absolutely. I think building on the advice monster and really listening, I think the other thing which is really hard to let go of sometimes is if we've had an experience and we've struggled through something and it's taken a lot out of us and we've got, ah, right. You know what? If I had to do this again, I would do it this way. And we see somebody going through the same thing and we're like, right, I really think you need to do it this way. It's actually realizing that when we're coaching, it's letting go and saying that, do you know what? It might be the same challenge as I perceive it, but actually you are resourceful and you will find your own way through. And I think as a coach, it's letting go of believing we have the right answer, because actually our experience is our experience now. Learning is our learning, and that might be helpful for somebody, but actually it's trusting that the other person actually has an answer. As Debs was saying earlier, we really come to coaching with the underlying assumption that somebody is resourceful, they will find their way through, and they will find their way through in a way that's right for them, and that actually may well not be our way at all. And letting go of. Of believing we know the right answer can be so difficult sometimes yet is absolutely key to being a really good coach. It's believing in the other person and helping them find the right way, not about us.

Heledd Jarosz Griffiths [: 00:39:31

Absolutely. I think that's absolutely perfect. So just one final reflection. Just as we kind of wrap up the podcast today, if someone in academia is thinking about developing their coaching skills, I guess we've touched on a little bit of this already. But you know, what one bit of advice would you give them?

Debs Hirst [: 00:39:51

So, I guess from a completely biased point of view, I would say do it because it will absolutely be the best thing that you do. I think my best bit of advice to people is that the skills that you would learn as part of this process aren't going to be groundbreakingly new. What it's going to do is going to help you bring some discipline to those skills. And actually, when you do that and you are able to help and support somebody through having a coaching style conversation, whether that's doing that as a coach or doing it as a leadership style, the benefits of that are immense. And actually, you know, how you can help and support somebody and the impact that can have is huge and is a really great thing to be able to do. No matter what, what role you're in. I also think it actually changes the way you operate as a person. So I would say that absolutely I don't coach my friends and family all the time, but it has changed how I operate with people.

So I think that that really helps me. And then I think my piece of advice would be if you are thinking about going through the process, just give yourself that permission to learn. So give yourself that real permission to learn these skills, but to kind of relearn these skills because you are going to be unpicking some things that become habits of a lifetime. The feeling of needing to have all the answers when you absolutely don't need to have any of the answers in a coaching session and feeling like you need to be able to give advice, to give impact, relearning that, that actually you don't need to do that. So give yourself that permission to learn.

Heledd Jarosz Griffiths [: 00:41:17

Thank you. Debs. Sian, would you like to give your final reflection?

Sian Taylor [: 00:41:22

I think building on everything that Debs has said, Because I absolutely agree with all of it, I would say find, find likeminded people whom you can practice with, who you trust to give you really constructive feedback. So, picking up on raising your own self-awareness, as Des was talking, we, we have habits and, and they can come out in all sorts of unconscious ways. So actually, having a space to practice and to receive the feedback so that you become aware about when you might inadvertently be giving somebody advice or you may perhaps be not giving advice, but leading somebody down a particular route with the sorts of questions that you're asking. Actually, having somebody who's a trusted friend to go, do you know what? You're kind of doing this? And just to be aware of that, I think that can be really invaluable because the theory and the knowledge is really important to ground you. But recognizing how that plays out when you're actually as a coach, working as a coach, being able to have that, that feedback and recognize through practice what comes naturally and what you might have to be more conscious of when you're, when you're actually coaching somebody, I think would be a great way to spend time to really develop your skills.

Heledd Jarosz Griffiths [: 00:42:55

Brilliant. Thank you so much for those final reflections. So, I'm afraid that's all we have time for in this episode. It's actually flown by. Deb. Sian, thank you so much for such a thoughtful and grounded conversation. I've learned a lot of a huge amount through these conversations here and through yourselves on the coaching course as well. And I'm sure our listeners have too.

It's been a real pleasure hearing your insights on what coaching is, how it works, and the value it brings to our listeners. Don't forget to check the show notes where we'll share any resources mentioned today. And do join us for Part two where we'll explore how coaching can support supervision, research, leadership, and building a more effective and more reflective academic culture. Thanks again for listening. Take care and I'll see you next time.

Outro [: 00:43:45

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