(Episode 95) How to become an Academic Leader and Stay True to Yourself - Professor Claire Brockett in conversation with Ruth Winden

Podcast announcer [: 00:00:04

Welcome to the Research Culture Uncovered podcast, where in every episode, we explore what is research culture, and what should it be? You'll hear thoughts and opinions from a range of contributors to help you change research culture into what you want it to be.

Ruth Winden [: 00:00:26

Hello. I'm Ruth Winden, the Careers with Research Consultant at the University of Leeds. I've been looking forward to today's conversation for a while. My guest is Claire Brockett, professor for biomechanics at the University of Sheffield. Claire suggested a topic that is close to her heart and that I think deserves more attention in academia. It's all about being a research leader and staying true to oneself. Welcome, Claire. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on combining the personal and the professional as an academic.

Ruth Winden [: 00:00:57

And I can't think of a better person to have this conversation with than you. And you have so many wonderful lessons and stories to share. And before we go into story, do you want to give us an insight into your career so far, Claire?

Claire Brockett [: 00:01:10

Hey. Thank you, Ruth. So, yes, I'm now a Professor of Biomechanics at the University of Sheffield, and I've been here nearly 2 years. But I'm going to take you back to the early stages of my career. So straight from school, I didn't feel like I was particularly academic, which is somewhat ironic. So I was a cardiac technician at Bedford Hospital. So this gave me lots of experience of working with patients. But the thing that I found frustrating there was I wasn't really getting much beyond doing the testing.

Claire Brockett [: 00:01:42

So I wasn't sort of asking scientific questions or sort of following through in the terms of the diagnosis. So I identified medical engineering as a potential career. I looked at different universities, and ended up at the University of Bradford, to do a medical engineering undergrad. And part of the reason I did this was I thought, back in the day, so I was only sort of 20, that I was going to go back into cardiovascular. So I'd been in surgery and seen pacemakers and heart valves and things and thought that's where I was going. But a placement at DePuy whilst I was doing my undergrad, twisted me along to orthopedics. So, I really enjoyed my time on placement, and that made a big impact on me in terms of research. So then I took on a PhD, which I started at Bradford, but moved across with Professor Jin when he moved to Leeds. PhD was interesting because I'd got this stereotypical one person sitting in the corner, never talking to anybody else, white coat kind of thing, and thought, oh, that's not for me, but discovered it's very much about teams and collaboration.

Claire Brockett [: 00:02:58

So then I somewhat took root in Leeds. So I had a couple of postdocs. One was looking at hip replacement, and then the next one was looking at knee replacement and wear and and performance of devices. At that point, I decided that I quite liked academia. So as a postdoc, I actively approached some of the academics to get some teaching experience. So from midway through my first postdoc, I was involved in project supervision and then got to teach and lecture on some modules, which, again, take me back to when I was about 14 and doing speeches for English. I had to do them from the back of the room because I was so nervous and didn't like people looking at me. So I think all of the teachers that knew me back then wouldn't, for a moment, suspect that this was the career I would end up with.

Claire Brockett [: 00:03:51

So then in about 2012, we had some, funding through the Leeds National Institute For Health Research Biomedical Research Center, which enabled me to have effectively a university fellowship, which put me on the course that I'm still on today in terms of doing research in the foot and ankle. And at some point along the way, I couldn't tell you when, I also became involved in the Centre For Doctoral Training, which was sort of supporting the development of about 50 PhD students. And then my senior colleague Joanne left. So in, I think, 2018, I picked up the director role for the CDT and then carried that on through till 2022. One of the things I discovered about myself during that time was how much I appreciated developing people and how rewarding it was to see people progress. So up until then, I think I'd been very research outcome focused. And after or as a result of that, I think things became a more bit more person focused. Obviously, we had COVID, dare I mention it, but that sort of led me to become the Director for Postgraduate Research in Leeds because I was able to have pretty difficult conversations with senior academics and the senior management around how PhDs were being looked after during COVID, because obviously it was a very challenging time for everyone.

Claire Brockett [: 00:05:20

I got this opportunity to apply for a job in Sheffield, and wasn't initially sure whether I was up to it. I don't think I it wasn't that I wasn't interested, but I wasn't sure that I had the profile that would enable me to get it. So had some conversations and some support from other people in terms of going for that. And then I have been here for nearly 2 years. Research is going well, teaching is going extremely well, and I've just become the Director for Postgraduate Research for our school here as well because it's something that's really important to me.

Ruth Winden [: 00:05:57

Wow, that is absolutely fantastic. What a career. And I love, Claire, that, you know, you're so open about the challenges and, and we'll talk a little bit more about that. But for for transparency, I know Claire so well because not only was I an external to the university at the time, you were my client because I was, I had developed the career transitions program for the for the cohort of the PhDs. And I remember when I was an external, I started it and I loved working with them. What I what really struck me was that all the PhDs was they were so value driven, and they were so keen. You know, I'm doing this because I really want to improve the lives of patients at a very, very clear objective with it. And Joanna went to Australia, and then you took over.

Ruth Winden [: 00:06:42

And what really struck me was, and I still hear this because I'm still in touch with some people, because some of them, you know, finished 2 years ago and, are still in touch with me and and give me updates on how their career is progressing. And it's so interesting. Every time I when we talk, we your name comes up immediately, and their eyes light up and they say, Claire was just wonderful because she was really so supportive of all the PhDs. And we had many, many PhDs, you know, not just supervision, but also as part of the program. And so getting this incredibly strong positive feedback from your community and seeing them now, you know, we follow them on LinkedIn and we see them thrive. You know, that must give you that must give you immense pride. But I also remember during COVID, you know, it was a lot to carry, wasn't it? Because everyone was looking at you, you know, the PhDs. They knew you always were supportive.

Ruth Winden [: 00:07:35

So who did they run to when they have issues? They run to Claire.

Claire Brockett [: 00:07:39

Yeah. I think, absolutely, it's it's it's genuinely incredible to see the successes that our PhD students have become just thinking about sort of particularly for our CDT because it was in sort of the medical engineering space. So we were taking biologists, physicists, chemists, and engineers, and then sort of changing their directions in some cases that they were coming in as a biologist, but leaving to go on to sort of more of a medical engineering profession. And I think that inherently encouraged the students to trust me because they were vulnerable going into a situation where they weren't comfortable with, learning things that they didn't know. And I think one of the key things for me was actually to be a reassuring presence because it was recognising things are hard. I think one of the challenges transitioning from sort of a degree to a PhD is just that self awareness and learning about yourself. And you may have come off the back of an undergraduate degree with a first class degree, but then turning that into delivering a PhD, takes some effort and is hard work. But COVID was terrible, let's face it.

Claire Brockett [: 00:08:59

So we had some we had some different challenges. So obviously, initially, we all knew as little as anybody else. So students were going, what do I do? And I was like, I have no idea. I don't know when the university is going to open or how things are going to work. But later on when when we kind of knew where we stood a little bit more, there were challenges also in terms of the PhD researchers had been receiving their stipend, were they gonna get more money, were they gonna get extensions. There were challenges in getting back to the labs and all those kind of things in terms of restrictions. So there was a lot to deal with. And again, I think my biggest role was, well, 2 things.

Claire Brockett [: 00:09:41

1 was organizational and asking questions on behalf of people because sadly, an academic member of staff asking a question perhaps has a bit more clout than a PhD student asking, sometimes. Or certainly perhaps the student doesn't have the confidence to do that. But secondly, I think it was just the pastoral role in terms of of being there, understanding that it was stressful, just giving students the opportunity to vent as well. I think quite often I would be, well, there's there's nothing practical I can do, but I understand that you need to talk this through or moan or tell me that the situation is terrible. And and we had lots of very constructive, conversations in that space. And just to maintain the community as well because we've gone from having, like, a shared office for our PhD researchers, because the whole idea is building the cohort, to the more scattered across the city not having contact. And I think that was a really important aspect to keep going as well.

Ruth Winden [: 00:10:46

And I think what struck me was, you know, you you created that really safe space for people. Mhmm. And because everyone said, oh, Claire's on our side. And that can't have been easy always either because, also, you know, you have certain expectations and, and you had your own pressures, you know, doing your research at the same time, but, having that transparency with the PhDs. So for me, that's was also interesting working with because I remember when I then became an internal at the university and I negotiated, my role at the university. Believe it or not, Claire, but my continuation with the with your program was my I think the 3rd the 3rd, piece on on my negotiation list because I felt like, you know, I'd seen through 6 years of that cohort, and there were 2 years left.

Ruth Winden [: 00:11:34

And and I said, it's really important to me, you know, that I continue because it was a wonderful opportunity. Also, to build up such a great community and also, you know, finish off what we had started together. And and I always find it so interesting the way you approach things with the PhDs because you were very clear in your expectations, but you always were fantastic advocate and listener. And and I think people really also see you as a role model because you can see some of them went in down the academic route. Some of them went into industry. Some of them did a complete career change, and it's really fascinating what what these 150 people have done with their lives. But I thought it was amazing to see how you modeled, you know, a side of academics that we might not see as much in terms of, you know, the personal development side and because that often is in in, you know, be not behind closed doors, but it it's not as as open as, you know, having those conversations and standing in front of people and saying, this is really important. This is your career development.

Ruth Winden [: 00:12:37

You know? You're lucky to get this time with a career consultant for 6 months, make the most of it. You know? So these really clear messages to people, making clear what your expectations are and what the opportunities are. I thought that was that was fascinating. And so what fascinates me about your proposed topic for today, you know, the becoming the academic leader, it's already very clear, you know, how much that means to you. And there is something that I find so interesting about the second part is staying true to yourself, because that implies that there is a chance that you might not do that if you're not careful. What do you mean by these staying true to yourself as an academic leader?

Claire Brockett [: 00:13:17

So I think, I think academia is is changing quite quickly at the moment in terms of, obviously, the landscape with regards to funding, I guess, the relationship with academia and general society is changing, but I think also sort of the the models that we've got. So when I was starting my PhD, the professors were what you might stereotypically think of as a professor, and I will come back to qualify that in a bit. But they were not in ivory towers, but were very almost inaccessible. So you felt bad for taking up their time. You knew that they were doing all this amazing research. Maybe I'm not doing amazing research. Maybe that's that's different, but no. Sorry.

Claire Brockett [: 00:14:05

I'm being flippant. The relationship was different in as much as when I was working with my PhD supervisors who were amazing academics and amazing people, I was really mindful that I was taking up their time. And I'm really careful that people I work with know that my time is theirs. And I think the other thing is I I would I think my dad would occasionally call me soft, And I think that's a really positive thing that I will listen to people's worries. I will pay attention to how people are feeling. And I think academia, particularly engineering academia, has historically been fairly formal, constrained. You get on with your research and then and then you you excel in your research. And I think for me, my career goes alongside my life.

Claire Brockett [: 00:15:01

And occasionally, things happen that mean they they crash into each other. And that's something that's really important to me in terms of how I work with other people is recognising that they have lives. And they don't turn up at 8:30, 9, become a researcher for however many hours, and then leave and get on with being themselves again. So I think for me, the sort of authentic side is just sitting comfortably with your own values and your own priorities. And it's probably taken me, I guess, when I was taking part in the CDT to really think about what my values were, and also become comfortable in my own skin. I think I spent early stages of my academic career trying to be someone else, trying to fit the model of being super organised and super shiny and just perfect in all directions. And then you kind of realize that no one's like that. And actually, what I've recognized in the last couple of years is enabling people to see that I'm not perfect and that I have anxieties about things or things stress me out actually helps other people.

Claire Brockett [: 00:16:15

Because initially, I thought I'm supposed to be this per like serene swan that everyone looks up to me as a leader and goes, that's the way to do it. Look, nothing stresses her out. She's the epitome of calm. And to be fair, most of the time, I am calm. But I realized that actually part of my hesitancy to really commit to academia and think of myself as a leader was feeling like I couldn't be myself and that that was wrong. And I thought, well, actually, if I'm feeling that, then there will be people that are following me that I'm doing no favours to if I try and dress myself up as someone different. And so I've been really open with sort of how I am. Like you said, I think academia understandably encourages excellence, which then makes us tend to focus on the negatives because we're trying to get rid of those.

Claire Brockett [: 00:17:09

And then that can make for a really hard life if you're never getting positive feedback. So I like to recognize that, actually, sometimes it isn't about the research output, but it's about what the other success is. So for me, my probably my biggest success in my career is not research related at all. It's some of the students that have maybe started a final year project with me, shy, maybe a little bit lacking in confidence, maybe not performing as well as they could be. And by the end of it, delivering a project they're proud of, that they're excited by, that they're enthused by. And so my research is incredibly important to me, but those kind of things where someone's sort of gone on a pathway and and and come out happier, more confident, is is really just the best thing I think about academia.

Ruth Winden [: 00:18:01

It's priceless, isn't it? And I think what what strikes me is and that's what the PhD say about you is Claire cares. And I think we need more of that in academia because, you know, we love the research, we love the teaching, and we love the excellence. And I I'm a big believer in if we can create an environment where people feel safe and they can be themselves, you know, because then they're then they're in a better position to actually make the contribution that they're really capable of. And and what strikes me also about you, Claire, is, you know, you're so value driven. And that it resonates with me because for me, one of the Leeds values you'll be familiar with is compassion. And I totally support that value because at the end of the day, yes, we're here to do, you know, to do extremely high level, you know, complicated problem solving. But at the end of the day, we're human beings with needs, and we're the better forward if we pay attention to this human side of of of academia. And and people notice it.

Ruth Winden [: 00:19:00

It's really interesting because I get the same feedback, oh, Ruth, you care. And and I always think, how do they why do they say that? And I think people actually feel it because we're when we're authentic and it take took me a long time as well, Claire. In in my profession, I always looked up at these role models. If I could only be like so and so. And took me at least 2 decades to realize, you know what? I am full of flaws, but I also have a lot to offer, and that's okay. And I have a specific style. It's not everyone's cup of tea. Again, I can live with that.

Ruth Winden [: 00:19:29

You know? But for those, it works. You know? I can I can help them achieve great success, in in whatever way success, you know, what that means to them? And so I felt a bit like when we worked together so closely, I felt like you were kindred spirit. Because, you know, I come from Germany, and Germany is very you know, academia still is to this day. It is extremely hierarchical. And Mhmm. And I worked at the university. So I was a student, and I also worked there as as a member, in the department. And, you know, it it I could never be myself because I always had to watch it, you know, because I felt like, you know, I'm not being accepted the way I am.

Ruth Winden [: 00:20:06

And and that hurts, you know. And and I think creating that that welcoming atmosphere where people are like, yeah, I can be myself. And the diversity is beautiful, isn't it? Because we all bring different things to the workplace.

Claire Brockett [: 00:20:21

Definitely. I think I I think recognizing individuals is unique. So I've now supervised, I think, co supervised or supervised 24 students to completion.

Ruth Winden [: 00:20:35

Wow.

Claire Brockett [: 00:20:35

And the range of even just from a subject area, what they came in with versus what they've gone on to do and and some of my PhD researchers are doing amazingly incredible stuff. But also the life experiences. So I had PhD students that had babies during their PhDs, they got married. So there's there's all sorts of life experiences that were going on during those PhDs. And I think I think one of the key things that I slowly developed, it wasn't something easy, was recognising that I needed to be a different person to different people and that one way of supervision was not going to fit everybody. So there are I don't know whether any of them will listen, but some of them will recognise that I was fairly firm and and structured with them. And some of them will think, oh, Claire was easygoing. And when I was having a a rubbish day, she told me to go home and take a break.

Claire Brockett [: 00:21:32

And it's just recognizing that people have different needs and therefore you need to to be receptive and responsive to that as well. Because as you say, you need to get the best out of people. And if they're fighting other things, then they're not in a position to do that. So my my key thing is to just try and put people in a position where they can be their best selves, I guess.

Ruth Winden [: 00:21:52

Yeah. It helps you attract the right people to do research with you. And because when I, you know, I've obviously followed you closely, you know, I thought what a loss to Leeds, but, you know, good for Sheffield, you are now settled in Sheffield. We need to talk about where you are in that building because there's a lovely story there too, you know. And I thought, oh, making the time to really embrace the personal side and of of the people you work with. You know? And I don't take that for granted because I'm fully aware, you know, how pressurized, you know, an academic's life is and how many priorities you have. And and it's very clear to hear from you. For you, that means, you know, yes, my research is incredibly important to me, but so are the people I surround myself with.

Ruth Winden [: 00:22:29

And I whether it's undergraduates you teach or masters students or PhDs or your colleagues or I mean, there's so many you work with. And I think that makes it actually really attractive as a research leader, isn't it? So my guess would be, you know, that you're probably inundated with people who want to work with you.

Claire Brockett [: 00:22:44

Yes. Yeah. Yes. I guess yes. Yeah. I have I have people keen to work with me. I mean, in the last couple of years, I've developed 3 or 4 additional collaborations on on projects that we've actually managed to get funded. One of the things that I've done recently which took me entirely out of my comfort zone was, a team science camp which happened last year.

Claire Brockett [: 00:23:09

So this is a National Institute For Health Research approach. So they brought us together around a topic, and I think there must have been about a 100 people in the room and you had to apply to it. And this was about multiple conditions. And we did an exercise where you had to stand next to people and work out who they were. And I was talking to medical statisticians, nurses, physiotherapists, doctors, various healthcare practitioners, lots of people involved in medical research. And sort of midway through the 1st day, I realized I was the only engineer in the room. And for for a little while, I felt a bit intimidated by that because I felt, oh, gosh. What am I doing here? And then when we settled down to sort of talk about projects, I kind of took the engineer outfit off and went, these are the skills.

Claire Brockett [: 00:24:00

This is what I can do. This is who I am. And discovered that I could make a really valuable contribution to what is a grant that we're about to start next year. So there's a team of 10 of us. And it's amazing to just sort of recognize your personal identity and the the skills and what you can bring rather than just labeling, well, I'm an engineer. I don't go near humans or whatever it might be.

Ruth Winden [: 00:24:27

Yeah. Yeah. Fascinating. And, Claire, tell me more about the building you're in because I was assuming you're sitting in the Diamond. That's the engineering building I'm familiar with. But you said, no, Ruth. I'm actually not in the Diamond here in Sheffield. Where are you?

Claire Brockett [: 00:24:41

So I am in the Pam Liversidge building, which isn't it was about a 5 minute walk from the Diamond building, but it has a special place for me. So when I was 17 ish, and didn't really know what I wanted to do, for a career, I had the fortune of being taken out for lunch by Pam Liversidge. And she introduced me to all these different engineering ideas. Because to be fair at 16, 17, certainly, because I'm not gonna say how old I am, but certainly back then, engineering wasn't necessarily something you thought of in terms of degrees and professions. Engineering was overalls and all that kind of stuff. The the stereotypes that we're still trying to to fight. So she took me out and and sort of said, well, this is kind of problem solving and it's kind of applied science. And she talked me through and really encouraged me to, consider engineering broadly, but she also introduced the idea of medical engineering to me.

Claire Brockett [: 00:25:47

Because my my dad is, an engineer and my mum, when I was young was a nurse. So the the medical engineering side is very strong in my sort of family roots. And yeah. So it took a couple of years before I ended up on my medical engineering program, but it was very much sort of her introduction that got me thinking about it. So it's it's really amazing to now be working in a building named after her.

Ruth Winden [: 00:26:12

Yeah. It's gone full circle. And isn't it wonderful that sometimes we have these chance meetings with people, and they take the time for us, and they give us the space, and they encourage us and inspire us. And yeah. And then years later, you know, you're you're now a professor. Yeah. I would hope in the profession. Yeah.

Claire Brockett [: 00:26:32

And I'd like to think that I mean, obviously, I I have far less interaction with school students, so I don't have that influence. But I really hope that I can have that same impact on someone in terms of enabling them to think about a slightly different career, not necessarily in academia, maybe in sort of a medical technology space. But as an example, one of my undergraduate project students last year came in as a purely mechanical engineer. Purely mechanical engineer. Absolutely loved the biomechanics final year project that I worked with him on. He even got to present it at a conference, and he's looking for PhDs in biomechanics now. But the start of last year, he was purely a mechanical engineer and didn't know what that involved.

Claire Brockett [: 00:27:15

So knowing that you can have that kind of influence just makes me mindful that I need to make sure that that's valuable, and I don't diminish the interest in terms of how I talk and approach about, approach things because I want to, again, hopefully inspire a few people to to follow in in this space and and make that difference.

Ruth Winden [: 00:27:36

And I think what strikes me is also Claire, you know, you do You're so self reflective and you're value driven. And, also, you challenge yourself and you're very open about this. And I think that's such an important message to your colleagues and the students because I think there's still so many people who have these really clear ideas about, you know, what it's like to be an academic and how you get there. And a lot of them seem to have this very linear career path in mind or or that you have to be a super genius to make it or you know? And you I know you've had your trials and tribulations like any professional. You know? That's not only in academia, but this constant, you know, how can I do this better? How can I serve the people I care about? You know? How can I drive my my professional interest? And how can I collaborate? You know? That that's been so, you know, so, obvious about you. And I think otherwise, I would not have negotiated with the university. I really, really need to finish the 2 years with Claire's program because I'm really committed, and I love doing it, and and I can't let them down. And it was actually not even a negotiation.

Ruth Winden [: 00:28:34

They said, yeah. Okay. Get this done. You know? So and I'm really pleased because I could bring the program to the end and and see what wonderful things people do. And I still get messages from the people from the very first year. So, because when you're on LinkedIn together and they, you know, and they still say, oh my word. You know, back then, I learned so much, and and look at me now, and you'd be so proud of me. And, you know, that's that's what, you know, what keeps you and me going because it is more work, and it does take energy, and it's the way you want to approach it.

Ruth Winden [: 00:29:04

So, Claire, when you look around and, you know, you see academics, it's they have so many demands on their time. Is there any advice you would give them? Because I really hope that we have, listeners who think, wow, you know, that's really inspirational. So I want I want to sort of up my game a little bit here in terms of how I support the people around me. What what do you think you should do to stay true to themselves? Any wise words?

Claire Brockett [: 00:29:29

So I think I think one thing is and it's it's a challenge is to give yourself some time. I think so certainly during the COVID days where things were challenging, I lost a lot of my creative enthusiasm just because I didn't have the headspace. I will I just was focused on tasks. I was responsive to whatever was coming through on email and chat. And in terms of lifting my head up and looking for the future, that just wasn't happening. I had a period of time where I was really bogged down. And I think there's a risk in academia that you can stay in that space, not as negatively, obviously. But if you've got particularly when a semester starts, if you've got teaching, tutorials, maybe some seminars, then I think it can be easy to fall into a habit of being purely responsive.

Claire Brockett [: 00:30:27

So you look at your calendar, you do what your calendar tells you, and then you spend the rest of the day replying to the emails. I think the thing that has been really important to me in the last couple of years and I mean, obviously, not everyone can move move place, but, actually, the the move to Sheffield enabled me to reset some of my boundaries, is sort of defining some boundaries. I think workload is always a problem for academics, but I think the thing there is to to negotiate. So if something is eating into your time, then it's something to flag. So as a good example, I block in my diary some time where students can drop in, and that can be students from 1st year undergrad through to postgraduates. And they, they know that there's a couple of hours that they can just drop in. I'm happy sitting, doing my emails and and sort of getting on with stuff. So if no one comes, then that's fine.

Claire Brockett [: 00:31:30

But it means that I'm having constructive discussions and meaningful time where people know that I'm actually giving them time on my terms. So it isn't someone popping their head head around the door. So that was something I did get wrong early doors in the CDT, was that I would just let people come into my office and into my space at any time. So I was busy writing a paper. They knocked the door and I would say, oh, come in. Let's have a chat. It's important to have the chat, but it needs to be in time that you've got. I think I, for a while, kind of compromised and then got myself very stressed by having that.

Claire Brockett [: 00:32:11

And then the other thing is that if you do have to compromise your time, so someone put something in your diary, teaching or what have you. Make sure you get that back. I used to, like, when I was trying to write a grant or something, have some time blocked aside for thinking about it. And then I'd go, oh, well, that's just for me. That doesn't matter. If I don't submit that fellowship, it only affects me. And so I'll go and do all these other things that are helping other people. Now that's that's lovely, but you have to have that balance.

Claire Brockett [: 00:32:42

You can't go too far the other way and spend all your time. But this is the other point where I find it's really important to put some boundaries is email. Mhmm. Because people will email you when they want to, obviously. And the reward center in your brain, if you're replying to them and helping them out, goes 'ding'. And you feel really happy by doing that. But what you're then sort of putting off is the grant writing and the paper writing, all the things that you have to do to be a good academic. And I think the balance there is really important.

Claire Brockett [: 00:33:17

And I certainly recognize it in myself where I'm having a bad day and so solving other people's problems suits me rather than going, could you try that yourself and come back to me?

Claire Brockett [: 00:33:27

Because I think that's the other boundary is if you are perceived as nice, then there is a more demands. That you get more demands, but also from, from a sort of interaction point of view. People will expect you to help. Yep. And expect you to help more than you should. So where, like, I I don't know. I can't think of an example at the moment. Oh, one of my undergrads the other week said, oh, Claire, I can't find this. What's this? Can you explain it to me? And it's all available on on Blackboard for them.

Claire Brockett [: 00:33:58

So 2 minutes on Blackboard. To be honest, I didn't respond immediately. I saw it come in, had other stuff. And then sort of several hours later, oh, I found it. It's okay. And it's like, well, actually, that should be you learning and you supporting yourself. So it's really important to be helpful, be approachable, be supportive, but also recognize that you can't do everything for everyone. And that's that's not what you should be doing either.

Claire Brockett [: 00:34:25

And I think, I think that took me a little while to to recognize because I was just like, oh, I need to help them. And it's like, that's that's actually not helping. And it's funny because I, for a while, thought that people would think less of me and, think I was mean or horrible. And and no one does because people recognize that I am making time. I am supportive. I do care, and I just don't have endless amounts of time to do things. So it's it's that balance.

Ruth Winden [: 00:34:56

Well no. And nore should you. Exactly. Exactly. Because I think, you know, it's also about I mean, I see this in my work. It's about setting expectations because I know, yes, I can help, and I'm as helpful as I want to be and can be. But there are moments where I think, no. You need to learn this yourself because Yeah. You won't have a Claire or Ruth around you forever.

Ruth Winden [: 00:35:12

You know? And and it also gives them the chance to realize, oh, I can actually do that. I don't actually need Ruth Winden to comment on my LinkedIn profile or my CV or help me find find the next step or or, you know so and what what strikes me, Claire, is, you know, it's a learning process. And what I love about your story so much is, you know, you're so open about, yeah, I didn't I don't always get it right, but I'm learning from it. And and that's that's the path of any professional, isn't it? We will get better and better and learn from it. And and that's also really good role modeling for for those you work with. It's we could be chatting forever. We could. And it was, because, you know, we have so much to chat about, but I'm very conscious.

Ruth Winden [: 00:35:51

I mean, you've given us so much of your time, and I'm very, you know, I'm very clear on professional boundaries. Also, you know, you've given us some really good food for thought, and it's so lovely to see you. And, yes, we're both based in Sheffield, so I do hope we will also manage to get a coffee at some point. But Definitely. But for day you know, for today, thank you so much, Claire. It's been really enlightening. And Thank you. Just just keep keep being you, you know, and never forget what an impact you make on all of us, and all the best.

Ruth Winden [: 00:36:20

You take care.

Claire Brockett [: 00:36:20

Thank you. Thank you.

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