(S2E8) A sense of (un)belonging? doctoral researchers and research culture

Intro: 00:00:00

Welcome to the Research Culture Uncovered podcast, where in every episode we explore what is research culture and what should it be? You'll hear thoughts and opinions from a range of contributors to help you change research culture into what you want it to be.

Tony: 00:00:25

Hello and welcome to season two of the Research Culture Uncovered Podcast. I'm Tony Bromley. Uh, and in season two we are speaking to people who presented at the Researcher Education Development Scholarship Conference in 2022. The conference itself. Um, was, had a theme, how do we stop losing talent in research careers?

And today we're particularly talking, uh, with one of the presenters, um, from the presentation which had the title, 'Academic Un Belonging and the Neoliberal University, A Comparative Institutional Case Study of doctoral researchers experiences at two English universities'. And we're delighted to have with me today Jawiria Naseem, who is from University of Birmingham.

So hello to you.

Jawiria: 00:01:11

Hi, Tony. Hi.

Tony: 00:01:13

Um, and there's actually, you, you were one of, uh, a number of people. So I did, I did wonder if you just wanted to say who the group were and how you came together. So there's, there's about half a dozen, yeah. Half a dozen presenters. So, uh, yeah, do you want to introduce your group, who you're speaking on behalf of?

Jawiria: 00:01:27

Yes. So, um, we have, uh, one main lead. Uh, who is Dr Lydia Lewis is from the University of Wolverhampton. And I am the lead for the University of Birmingham. Um, with us, we have, uh, for the colleagues, uh, Amy Wells from the National Survivors User Network. Uh, Dr. Anna Lavis from the University of Birmingham, uh, Tayeba Han, who is a, uh, PGR actually at the University of Wolverhampton.

And Dr Gurpinder Lalli, who is also with the University of Wolverhampton.

Tony: 00:01:58

Thank you, and I just wondered what the drivers are, because that's quite a group. It's quite a diverse group, so I think it's well put, well put together. Um, so what. What made this group come together? What were the driving forces?

Jawiria: 00:02:11

Well, I, I think I, I came into the group, uh, thanks to group in there because we've been working on the side, uh, together.

And um, he just came to me saying, you know, one of my colleagues, so Lydia is putting together proposal for work on, um, students in high education and, uh, especially postgraduate students, PhD students. And I was thinking, okay, that's interesting because often when you look at research, uh, you'll see that a lot of the research around experiences of belonging, inclusion, exclusion is focused on undergraduate students.

So this was very new to me and I was thinking, well, there isn't much out there, and are you sure you wanna do that? And they said, well, that's the whole point because there isn't much out there. So we wanna go in and have a look at what's happening with those students especially. So this is how I came along because I work a lot around university students, their transition into employment and especially feelings of belonging, non belonging while at university. So I think that's how I came about into, into the group and then, Uh, lead up together the other, other colleagues as well, uh. Amy Wells, for example, she is with the National Survivors User Group.

And, uh, it was very important to have her on board because, um, as you can imagine, we're talking about your experiences while at university and PhD journeys are very lonely. Mm-hmm. So having somebody like Amy on board was very important to provide the support when and where needed when engaging with those students.

So definitely I think that the team balanced out really well in terms of having representation from both universities, external to the university, and also in terms of what we bring to the table in terms

Tony: 00:03:47

of you had a, a postgraduate researcher as well as part of the group.

Jawiria: 00:03:51

So Tayeba is, is our postgraduate researcher and she's at the university of Wolverhampton. I guess everyone on the team actually, um, was a postgraduate researcher at some point in time.

Uh, so I think we are bringing our own experiences to the table as well. Um, but yeah, so Tayeba are actually currently doing her, her PhD with and is her primary supervisor.

Tony: 00:04:11

Excellent. Um, so that's how the group came together and you've got really good representation in terms of the study you went on to do.

So I just wonder if you give us an overview of what you actually did. How did you carry out the work? How did you get participants involved? So what, what did you do?

Jawiria: 00:04:26

So, I think the first part was the longest and most difficult part because that was the time where, we came together, we didn't know what was happening with the proposal, but we started to work on it a little bit.

Um, and then when we knew that, um, we had the funding, we had the big gap between when the funding kicked in and uh, when we actually started working. So it was a case of coming together. Doing a lot of, uh, research work in terms of reading the literature, making sure we are aware of the current issues around, um, students' experiences in higher education, and especially looking at those intersectional experiences.

So we talk about university students, but we have international students, we have minority ethnic students, we have white students, international students who are also qualified as minority ethnic students. We have female student may students. So all of that you. It was important for us to get our head around what we know to date and then move it, uh, from there.

Um, and this is where literature searches was, was very important at the start. Um, so that was the first stage and then, um, the next step was to actually get people to come and speak to us. So the focus groups was the next step and, um, it was, uh, in a way a bit easier to get participants to work with us because, um, we were looking at participants in our own universities.

So we had that, you know, insider a knowledge of who to contact, you know, how to spread the word, how to get people to, to, uh, come for the information. So it was a bit easier, uh, in that sense. Um, so we just emailed, um, different, um, departments, uh, different, um, colleagues that we know are in touch with PGRs.

And then I was a case of, you know, sharing the information and whether you are happy to move on and I think with that, the, the most difficult part was to organize those focus groups because imagine having 29 people and you're trying to find slots to interview them in a focus group. So that was a bit manic, um, in terms of getting them together.

Tony: 00:06:28

Now, and just looking at the period time when you did this, it was through the Covid period. So were these focus groups, online focus groups?

Jawiria: 00:06:35

They were, they were online. Um, at the time when we started, there was an option to actually have, um, indoor. You know, focus, groups, because at the time the regulations, uh, were actually relaxed.

So we could have done that. But we realized that actually most of our PGRs they actually travel in. They don't necessarily are local. And therefore it was easier for us to do them online because then, you know, and what it could be available, uh, when it suited them. So the traveling in, produced an additional barrier for participants, you know, oh, I have to make the effort to go somewhere.

So it was a bit easier and we had international students who were not in the country as well. So, you know, having it online just made it easier to even reach out to those. So I think, yeah, you could say that the one thing out of Covid is the ability to do things online, that we normally would not do it online.

So I think that was very useful for us to have that, uh, online option for, for our participants. So all our groups actually were.

Tony: 00:07:30

And also I think a lot of us are finding you, you can get better representation if, uh, it doesn't have to be on a physical campus. International people can contribute.

Jawiria: 00:07:38

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. So we had, you know, participants who are a part-time students, meaning that they're also working and so they could, you know, accommodate us. Um, within their busy time schedule because we were able to do it, you know, after work with half an hour break and they don't have to come in, um, having that extra time for them.

So I think that definitely was easy for us to, to organize it and, and easier for participants to actually just, you know, come forward and say, yes, I'm happy to participate. Definitely.

Tony: 00:08:07

Uh, was it okay in terms of disclosure, I'm always, um, concerned whether people feel able to speak more, more readily or less readily perhaps when they're in the online environment.

Were, were they comfortable to speak on sometimes sensitive topics? Obviously?

Jawiria: 00:08:20

Uh, I think that the legwork was around, you know, rating awareness of the issues that we are going to address, so there was no surprise per se for the participants. We shared with them, um, a list of questions, topics that we were interested in.

We asked them to do some pre-focus group work, such as, you know, do you have any picture ready that you would like to share with us that could represent your experience of going through your PhD journey? So a lot of that enabled us to, you know, break the ice before the session. And of course, you know we made sure that, you know, participants are remained anonymous and we ensure confidentiality throughout, um, even with the output.

So, uh, that was very important and, and, you know, that's something that you wouldn't be able to do without having all the ethical approval. So I think covering those grounds and, you know, sharing the information with participants, make them, you know, feel more relaxed about how their information is going to be shared.

What are we going to do with their, you know, data in terms of what they're sharing with us. So I think that was, that was, that made things easier for participants, definitely.

Tony: 00:09:20

I'm just wondering, I'm gonna move on to the, the interest a bit in terms of what the themes that you, that came out of it. But, um, for those who, our listener who wants know the data, um, how, how many people did you speak to?

Jawiria: 00:09:30

So 29, uh, participants on total?

Tony: 00:09:33

Yeah. Excellent. So that's, that's a, a good number of participants. So what were the key themes coming out? Cause we say in your title, it was a comparative study, but it it is about experiences. So what were the key themes coming out from the postgrad researchers?

Jawiria: 00:09:47

other people that you may identify with. So you have that common or shared histories or you know, characteristics, so you, you are in a safe, comfortable environment. So that would be the sense of belonging. And when we spoke to participants, and obviously when we started the analysis, we realized that many participants were actually, uh, talking about this, this one point.

There were different findings, but I think the one that really, you know, for me speaks a lot is this idea of materialized belonging. Because you would think about belonging as something that it's intangible. You can't, you know, put your finger on it. It's, it's a feeling that you have, but participants were talking about something that is materialized.

So this was very interesting. And essentially what they were saying is, you have this, you know, journey of, of a PhD postgraduate student and you have that space and a space where you can go to. So that was the material side of things. So where do I go if I want to conduct my research? When I go to university

where's my space? Where do I belong in that space? And we realize that actually, not everyone has a space, or even if you do have a space, it might not be the same. So there were some inequalities in terms of how that materialized belonging was experienced. For example, we had some participants who had scholarships and therefore they were fully integrated into the research culture of their university.

And therefore that made it easier for them to participate, be involved. So they had an office to go to. They have their own space that they could call their own within the university, whereas students who may not have had, you know, those opportunities of having a scholarship or funding to support them.

There would be a common room where they could go to, there wouldn't be an allocated space that's just their own, you know, that they could say, well, this is mine, this is where I belong. This is my space. So the materialized of sense of belonging was about those little things that make a huge difference to a PhD's career, future careers.

So having that space, knowing what it means to be a research assistant, for example. Um, things such as having opportunities to teach, that made a huge difference because again, you, you become part of a culture. It's not just because we often say first graduate students, but they're not really student are they?

Because they're researchers and they, they're not yet there on the other side. So where do they belong? Even in terms of, so ve

Tony: 00:12:45

Venn diagram somewhere in there, isn't there?

Jawiria: 00:12:47

There we go. It's like really in the middle somewhere. It's a gray area. And so those are the things made the difference for these students.

So having an opportunity, for example, to teach, they start to belong to that academic culture. So you are now a tutor, you're engaging with students. You're sharing, for example, your research through lectures or seminars. So even those opportunities were important to uh, some participants and on the other side of the spectrum, so those who actually picked up on the fact that, you know, they do not have those opportunities so they, they do not belong to the university because they don't have that material side of things.

On the other side, you have participants who said, well, actually I don't want to belong to all of that. So they on wanted a feeling of unbelonging, if that makes sense? So they did not want to be part of any of that. They did not want to have a space, they did not want to have teaching opportunities because that's not what they were aspiring to do.

Or in some instance, you know, they actually not want to be part of that neoliberal culture. Where you know you're studying because you want to get that job, you want to get a higher paid salary or something that's really material at the end. So they really were at the other end of the spectrum. I'm getting this education, I'm getting and doing this research because I'm interested in it and I don't need to belong to that, you know, environment. Or my belonging is

where I work, and this is for example, for students who were, um, part-time students and therefore they had, you know, full-time jobs. So their belonging community was not within higher

education.

Tony: 00:14:21

They may well have had several belonging communities perhaps.

Jawiria: 00:14:23

Absolutely. Absolutely, absolutely. And so this was very interesting to see how the participants, you know, really broke down the different sides of belonging. So, you know, macro level, wise level, and you know, the, the higher level. So all of that helped us see that actually when we think about belonging, there's so many elements to that. And that's not just, you know, a feeling of being part of something intangible. It's something more than that actually.

Tony: 00:14:49

Well, I was just wondering, again, coming back to your title is as comparative between two universities, so what, you know, how did the two universities compare? Were there things that definitely one university was doing better and the other one could improve on or vice versa? Or actually, did the two universities not really come out?

It didn't really matter, you know, what was the comparison between the two universities?

Jawiria: 00:15:09

I think because we have a very diverse cohort of students, it actually really pulled out the differences in similarities, for example, Um, there were a lot more minor ethnic students in the, um, post 92 university than the, uh, pre um, uh, pre 92 university.

So that made a huge difference in terms of how students felt being part of that environment. And this is not just for post graduate students. There's something known for even undergraduate students is where they tend to be. They want to go to less white universities, more diverse universities, and the experience of belonging was, um, more positive in that post 92 University, because students really felt that they actually are really recognized as individuals contributing to their research culture, contributing to the academic environment of their institutions compared to students who felt that, you know, uh you almost here, you give your money and then, you know, you just go out and finish your job by yourself.

And unfortunately, that's something that we need to be mindful of, you know, because, you know, do you rely on the reputation of your institution to, you know, just provide the minimal service or, you know, the minimal, um, quality provision. And even though that's not the intent of the university, it, it has been felt by the student.

It means that something has gone wrong, somewhere. So I think that, that, go on.

Tony: 00:16:34

No, I was just gonna say, I was just, um, thinking we, we have international listeners, so I just want to quickly say what a post-92 and a pre-92 was, because that's Yeah, sure. It's a uk I mean, do you wanna explain it? It's a UK thing.

Jawiria: 00:16:47

So, so the, uh, post-92 universities are those universities who had a polytechnic, um, status.

And after: 1992

So I think that's the distinction, uh, between the pre and post and to add to that, um, it is also known now that, um, uh, pre 92 universities tend to be more white universities than post 92 universities. So if you think about the, uh, characteristic of our participants in terms of their ethnic identification, and we had a big difference in terms of who was studying where.

Tony: 00:17:37

Yeah, it's, it's an interest, it's an interesting dynamic and it's an interesting, uh, thing within the UK we often debate about the purposes of the, the universities, um, that we have. So I wanted to, I'm just, uh, conscious of the time, wanted to bring this, bring us together a little bit, so, In terms of what we said in the conversation, if, what would you say the, the really key things you'd, like, anybody who's listening to us to take away from your study, is there one or two key points you'd want to highlight for, for people?

Jawiria: 00:18:08

Um, I, I think for post-graduate researchers, if they, if they are listening, um, you know, definitely, um, if there are any feelings such as, you know, I don't feel I belong, then, you know, it needs to be raised. You know, often what you would find is that people don't say anything. We had participants who were in the final year and they were saying to us, well, you know, I'm just here doing my work and I'm going, I'm not going to make, you know, lifelong, uh, partnerships with anyone in terms of friendship or work relationship because, you know, I was on my own throughout that time.

So I think it's very important to raise awareness that, you know if this is something that's happening, then, you know, it needs to be raised. And often, um, in most cases, you actually do have a personal tutor that's allocated to your, um, um, uh, postgraduate researchers. So something to be raised. So for those students, please do speak up and, and, you know, share your experiences to say, well, something that's not,

something's not working. Now, for those within higher education who are working with postgraduate research, I think it's very important to understand those differences and come to realize that their implication in terms of, you know, teaching and learning, how do you make sure that you are fully including everyone in your work?

Okay. What is the relationship that you're building with your students? Is it just a student and supervisor and supervisee relationship, or are you trying to work with the student to move them forward towards their transition? You know, maybe in academia, maybe outside. So I think it's very important to understand that it's not just about you know,

what an individual is feeling on their own, but also working together. So I think the collaboration is very important. The partnership needs to be more than just, you know, I'm here to do a piece of work and then I'm gone. I think it should be more than that, and I think if we are able to create that relationship, I think the experiences will be more different than what we have currently.

Definitely.

Tony: 00:20:03

You know, it's been, it's been fascinating listening to you. One of the things that struck me is that I had, I hadn't thought about in terms of belonging. I've made an incorrect assumption that everybody wants to have a strong belonging. But you actually talked about some people who don't want a strong belonging.

So I need to, you know, it's been great for me to listen to you. I need to rethink my own thoughts on belonging. Belonging.

Jawiria: 00:20:22

It, it is, absolutely, because, you know, What you would imagine is that you know, either you belong, you don't belong. If you belong, you have had that acceptance, you are included. And if you don't belong, it means that you have been excluded.

So it's been imposed on you. You don't decide not to belong. Right? Yeah. But this idea of consciously deciding not to belong so this 'unbelonging' actually empowers you because then you decide what you want to do. You decided actually you do not want to be part of that. And I think that's really empowering for students, you know?

Expressing themselves in that sense. And even for me, it was really interesting to hear that because you would assume, well, you wanna be part of your university, right? You wanna be, you know, part of that learning community. You want to build, you know, those connections that may, you know, help you, support you in the future.

But actually no. Some do not want to do that. And that's because of their unique characteristics, these were mostly part-time students who actually were doing their, um, uh, who had work on the side and they did not need to

have that. So they were comfortable with belonging that they were getting from elsewhere.

Yeah, absolutely. That's fascinat fascinating.

That's the thing. Absolutely. So even, you know, that, um, That's, um, entry into your PhDs journey. You know, it would make a difference if you are a mature student so that you know, you have, you know, lifelong experience already under your belt compared to somebody who is transitioning from, you know, an MA and moving on.

That would make a huge difference in terms of how you feel about your own positioning within that high education environment. Definitely.

Tony: 00:21:52

Excellent. I've got one very last question for you, and then we'll finish. No, that's, it's just the future question. So people, uh, listenening to us. They may well think, I want to find out more about this.

Is there a website? Is there gonna be a publication?

Jawiria: 00:22:05

Um, yes. We, we do have a website. Um, I can share that with you. And so you can put it, uh, with the, with the podcast. Yeah. And we are now in the process of finalizing the informationand putting together the final report, which will also be available to, for, um, anyone interested to download and then, uh, find out more about the, the project and the findings in general.

Tony: 00:22:26

That's excellent. So the website, if you think you want the website, it will be, we'll put it in a notes for the podcast, which you're able to do. So please do, do look at the notes for this. Podcast. So thank you very much. You've been terrific to listen to you. Uh, you know, I've, I've learned a great deal about the belonging and unbelonging aspect.

I need to reframe what I, my thinking is, so, uh, thank you for doing a podcast for us. Thank you.

Jawiria: 00:22:46

Thank you for having us. Thank you very much. Take care.

Intro: 00:22:53

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