(S2E9) Women researchers, 'Screwed from the start!'

Intro: 00:00:00

Welcome to the Research Culture Uncovered podcast, where in every episode we explore what is research culture and what should it be? You'll hear thoughts and opinions from a range of contributors to help you change research culture into what you want it to be.

Tony: 00:00:24

Hello, welcome. I'm Tony Bromley. Welcome to the Research Culture Uncovered podcast.

ent scholarship conference in: 2022

So I have Åsa and Ann, uh, and they presented, 'Screwed from the start: how women perceive opportunities and barriers for building a successful research career'. Um, so it'll just help quickly. Hello, uh, Ann Hello.

Ann: 00:01:08

Hello. Nice to meet you.

Tony: 00:01:09

Thank you. And have Åsa. Hello.

Åsa: 00:01:12

Hi. Thanks for having us here.

Tony: 00:01:14

And I'll try, uh, for the listener, I'll try to make sure you know who is speaking as we go through, uh, the, uh, podcast.

Uh, I wonder if we can start, perhaps, Ann if you just want to explain the, the people that you had as a group.

Ann: 00:01:29

Yes. Maybe Åsa you can start and, and present yourself. You're the main author.

Åsa: 00:01:34

Yeah. Yes. So my name is, uh, Åsa Berggren and I am a researcher and teacher at the Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences in Sweden.

So I've been, uh, part of this very interesting study that I hope we can talk to you about.

Ann: 00:01:51

Hmm. Yes. So my name is Ann Grubbström. I am a researcher at Division of Environmental Communication, uh, also at SLU. And, uh, I've been involved in issues about gender in different fields as, for example, um, Forest education, young farmers, young people in the countryside.

So I'm interested in improving opportunities for young women in different contexts. But later then I focused on academia together with Åsa and also with two other co-authors. Uh, I'm also working as, uh, educational developer at SLU, uh, and together with, uh, Cecilia Almlöv. And Cecilia.

She's also a doctoral student at the Royal Institute of Technology in Stockholm, and her research focuses new co supervisors, and she's also an educational developer

then together with me. And Cecilia has, uh, through her research many insights about early career research. And, uh, Alexandra D’Urso, she has a background as researcher in teaching and, uh, curriculum and, uh, she was a teacher at Pennsylvania State University in the US but now also work as an educational developer at SLU.

And we met Åsa then, uh, when she attended courses and seminars that we have arranged, uh, and found out that we were all interested in to dig deeper into the situation for early career women and thought that we could like, contribute with different, uh, perspectives to together.

Tony: 00:03:32

Okay, thank you. There was one thing, uh, just to probably distract slightly, uh, Åsa is, is sat in front of an image which has some berries on it.

And I being inquisitive, I did ask before we started recording this, what the berries were and it seems to be a Swedish particular delicacy. Is it Åsa?

Åsa: 00:03:50

Yes. And they're lovely to eat and they're lovely to look at. There's a red round, sort of luscious berries in the green foliage here and. And they maturing in Autumn.

You have them in jam and it's called the Lingon Sylt in Swedish, so lingon berry Jam. And you have it with lots of sort of savory meats and the Swedish meatballs you have them with. So they're lovely. So try that if you have a possibility. Or come to Sweden and pick them and make some jam. So

Tony: 00:04:19

have to, I'll put it on my list of places to visit.

Um, sorry for that distraction for people listening to us so we can get back to, um, the, the topic of the conversation. So, um, I did wonder how people came together as a group. So you've described some of that as, as we've gone, as you did that introduction in terms you coming together as a group. So we may want to move on to perhaps the next, uh, a aspect of the podcast that we discussed.

So, how did you carry out the work? How did you get participants involved? So perhaps go to Åsa for that one.

Åsa: 00:04:54

Yeah, so, uh, we were really interesting to see how young, uh, women in research see their possibility to career and the barriers to this. So we were looking for, uh, young, uh, researchers and we focused on one of the departments, one of the major departments at this university.

And cuz we knew there were lots, uh, of potential participants there. So we went out and asked. First on email, and actually everyone we asked, they wanted to be a part of it, which was very nice for us. So we ended up with having 12, uh, sort of postdoc researchers where there had been postdocs for a number of everything from between maybe 1, 2, 4 years, then later on participated.

And we had this, uh, uh, groups, uh, where we had the, uh, where, where we did the discussions later on. So they were part of all, all the study from the beginning to the end.

Tony: 00:05:50

In terms of study, what, what were the main findings that you, that you picked up from the study and one aspect I was in, in reading your abstract, you talked about tangible, uh, resources.

So I did, just to be clear, I just wondered what you, what you meant by specifically, the sort of resources that you were talking about. I Åsa want to come in on that one?

Åsa: 00:06:08

Yeah, I can, uh, talk about that. Yeah, so resources is a sort of a major focus of our paper and how that affects the, how women can make a career within the, within academia.

And, and we can talk about resources as well as tangible and intangible. So tangible resources are something you actually can touch then, or you can see clearly, and then sort of getting either resources or funding for your project or your experiments or studies or whatever you do. And or getting a actually position.

And we know that the position is actually, you know, the, the really end point to some of the people, some researchers in academia is when you get sort of a solidity and can maintain in academia. So these are sort of two tangible resources and intangible resources should not be, uh, considered less valuable actually because.

Resources could be extremely valuable. It's like being part of your or other, more senior people's network or be part of applications or, or mentored. Lots of different things that you can't really touch so easily, but they're super important if you want to do a career. So we have these type of resources that came up when we talked to these research.

Tony: 00:07:23

Um, in terms of the main findings, I dunno whether Anna also wants to come in on. So what were the main findings? You did talk about barriers and it's, it's really interesting for me to, to see the, the differences as you've contrasted between what men, um, how men can progress and what, and the less difficulty they have.

So did you wanna say more about what the barriers were and what those particular difficulties were also?

Åsa: 00:07:48

Yeah. Yeah. So, So we, uh, there were several things that came up from, uh, from these discussions and then, and what they actually expressed, what that they could see that the organization allocated, uh, the majority or lots of positions, at least to men instead of women.

So they could see like, like for their point of view, what's the, what's the express, what's, what's the future for them in academia when they see, they, obviously they don't want us here. So that's how they felt. And uh, they felt like they, so, so the university don't invest in, in women and they want, don't wanna keep women, uh, it looks like.

So they actually regarded their chances low to maintain in academia then. And uh, they also expressed that they felt that the workload that they had, uh, were different, uh, compared to their male colleagues at the same level. They felt like they had re had to work super hard all the time to be even be able, you know, on the same level as, as other, uh, postdoc researchers.

And, and they, and some expressed as well that they had been in situations where, uh, where they had colleagues, uh, men that could sort of be ill prepared and so on still be valued equal or higher than them. So, so it was a huge, so that they felt they, they were not the norm on, and they, they had a big question mark about their future in terms of resources and so on.

Tony: 00:09:27

I was interested because we had the keynote, um, presentation at the conference and, and, uh, she talked about, um, how we value the various aspects of the work that goes on. And, and she said that in her research that, uh, women, I'm trying to, um, represent her correctly, but women tend to do things that the, the system doesn't

or more likely to do things that the system doesn't value so much. So she talked about the pastoral care, which is more likely to be women, um, doing things. So did you, did you find that, um, women were doing things that weren't as valued in the system but, uh, you know, obviously extremely valuable as the, quite often the system wouldn't run without these things happening, but they're not what's valued in terms of promotion.

Did that chime with your sort of research?

Ann: 00:10:16

Yeah, yeah, it does. Yeah. I think like an important result is that, uh, women in our study, they feel socially included. I mean, they do a lot of these things, as you mentioned, but not intellectually included. They were not, like, felt that they were treated as intellectually equal.

Tony: 00:10:36

It's interesting, um, and that's why the keynote speaker was caught, um, calling for a reevaluation about what we value, if I'm using the word value too much, but a reevaluation of what we value was important within, within these, um, systems. It's interesting you found you had similar findings. Um, In terms of the outcomes of the research, then you, you do begin to suggest ways that things could be improved.

So I just wondered if you want to come in on an outcome in terms of outcomes or what you think we could do about this? Yeah. Is Ann Yes,

Ann: 00:11:09

At first, I would just want to say maybe also that it was hard for, for, before we go into that, uh, but it was hard for them to be included in the networks. Like they have this, uh, former

doctoral supervisors. Uh, but they, it was really hard for them to come into that network. Uh, so it's basically up to themselves to build their own network. So I just wanted to add that also. I think that's important,

Tony: 00:11:37

but I did wonder actually what you, you mention, um, you mentioned the, the university, when we refer to the university, I just wondered what the university was in terms of senior

um, senior people. So is the university male dominated perhaps, uh, does that or actually does it not matter? Does when we, when we refer to the university, does it still not favour, uh, or support women even if it isn't demographically male particularly does, what were your thoughts on that?

Åsa: 00:12:05

I think if you look at it overall, uh, it's pretty, uh, 50 50 ish.

Uh, but if you look at different sort of fields, uh, so on, it can vary a lot. Mm-hmm. . But, uh, but uh, in general, when you look at the figures, uh, at this university and at other universities in other countries as well, It's what you see is like even if you have 50 50 from the beginning, or even in some cases maybe female dominance in the earlier education, then as as when the resources are getting smaller or when it's really prestigious point to get to that, that threshold, then you see it's totally sort of flipping towards a male bias and I think it's.

So, so what we are seeing here in terms of that is like where, what you see everywhere Exactly. If you start to look at the numbers. So, so I think it's quite a general pattern that we have discovered. Yeah.

Tony: 00:13:05

Yeah. And I didn't wanna highlight your respective universities, any different from any others out there.

Um, I, I think I, I kind of distracted another question. We were talking about the potential things that you could do to improve matters. I didn't, yeah. If Ann, if you want to look at your findings in terms of how you can improve things.

Ann: 00:13:21

Yeah, I was wanted to say also that it's, uh, they experience that it's a lack of meaningful actions in a way that it's a lot of discussions and policies and so on, but what is actually happening and, uh, they experience also that it's an awareness, but it's like a gap between, uh, talking a lot and, and the acting.

And Åsa you, you can say something about what we want, what they say that they want to do about.

Åsa: 00:13:50

Yes. So they have lots of ideas, actually really good ideas and so nice to hear them. It's amazing actually having a, facing this really tough environment and still have ideas and put forward these ideas and sort of somewhere, obviously they must believe in the system as well and many are sort of laughing, saying, I must be crazy.

I'm still here, and so on. Uh, but, but, but they, at least they push these ideas and would love to get some of these out there and. And, and some, uh, thought or that came several times. So actually they, some of, if it's possible for everyone to see how the university this actually, uh, where they put their resources, if it's transparent.

Who get their positions and, and who gets funding. There couldn't be lots of, this funding actually is happening inside the universities, but this is just a black box. People hardly know why and who gets what. So if I think a first step like they suggest is, is to get this open. So we see where the money goes and when we see where the money goes, it's easier to make changes if we actually can see that.

So that was a major point that, uh, that. And, and there were also actions, uh, or, uh, suggestions that, that people actually, and everyone that is senior, both researchers, uh, teachers, but also administrator, administrators, that they should go on agenda training. That it should be obligatory so no one can sort of, be ignorant about these really important factors.

There were some other suggestions.

Tony: 00:15:28

Yeah, no, that, that's great. I just wonder, just to pull, start pulling things together, is there perhaps one or two key points that you would like people to take away with them? And perhaps is there something, cause I'm thinking here as an individual, is there something I can do as an individual?

But it is perhaps things that universities can do. So I dunno who would like to pick that, that one up? What's the sort of key things we need to take away from this?

Ann: 00:15:53

I can start with one thing. I think it's easy to think that this is only happening at, uh, the university that we have investigated, but we hope and want the listeners to think and reflect about their own organization and what's happening there.

And I think it's, as you say, I think it's important that all of us, uh, can contribute and, uh, that we can make change from our own position that we are senior. If we are senior researcher. We, we are role models for early career researchers and it's important how we, how we behave and how what we do.

Tony: 00:16:30

Yeah, absolutely.

Um, Åsa, did you want to comment on perhaps the, the, the broader picture? Um, is there something that universities in general, cause it isn't certainly, isn't just your university.

Åsa: 00:16:41

No, and, and I think it's, it's important to, to, to say that and like Ann suggests because we have to look, uh, upon ourselves and where we sit.

So we don't just ignore this and, and think this happens somewhere else. Everyone have technology. So I, I, I think, um, I think it's understanding that we actually have to do something and we have to do something soon because, Previously, I think lots of the thoughts were like, wait and things would change for the better.

But actually in some of these numbers we're seeing going back the wrong way now, uh, less females are ending up with money and in senior positions. So, so I think, uh, we absolutely have to do something very, very soon and we everyone have to help out those person persons and universities as organizations I think.

Tony: 00:17:33

Absolutely. And I just wondered as a final question, um, you know, it's really interesting work you, that you're doing. I just wondered what's happens next? Are you gonna be publishing anything? Can people listening access any of the work anywhere?

Åsa: 00:17:48

Yeah, so this study, uh, we are talking about now, it's actually very soon coming out in, uh, a publication called Frontiers in Education.

So, uh, very soon we'll be out there. And then we have a few other I ideas, um, as well. Ann maybe you can say some of our ideas.

Ann: 00:18:08

Yes, we are interested in to know more about this intangible resources and, uh, to know more about, uh, what re resources that support early career women and what they think about it more.

And, um, We have also an idea to get a deeper understanding of the reasons why some of the postdocs drop out and, uh, how they decide to not continue in their academic career. We know that there have been studies already about that, but we think that, uh, we need to know more about it. Thank you. And also the situation for the international, um, early career researchers.

Tony: 00:18:50

Yeah. Thank you very much. Um, I'm gonna pull things to, to close there. We can, for people listening, we will put, um, website links into the show notes for the podcast. So, uh, we could, if you, if you want to find, uh, future work, we'll we'll add them to the, the show notes that comes with the podcast. So, um, thank you.

Um, Ann, and Åsa, thank you for the contributions and thank you for your presentation at REDS. If I could say goodbye. Thank you.

Åsa: 00:19:15

Goodbye. Thank you.

Intro: 00:19:20

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