(S4E2) Research Careers: Dr James Warren and his postdoctoral career journey

Introduction [: 00:00:04

Welcome to the Research Culture Uncovered podcast, where in every episode we explore what is research culture and what should it be. You'll hear thoughts and opinions from a range of contributors to help you change research culture into what you want it to be.

Ruth Winden [: 00:00:24

Welcome to episode two in season four that focuses on research careers. My name is Ruth Winden, and I'm the Careers with Research Consultant at the University of Leeds. My career season will feature researchers who have stood out to me in their willingness to embrace their careers and challenge themselves to make sound career choices. They have been proactive, explored opportunities, and always learned from their experiences. For sure, they have stories to tell from which you and I can learn a lot.

My guest today is a Research Fellow at the University of Leeds who specializes in self organizing biomaterials for tissue engineering applications. And what that means we will come to, I'm sure.

eeds. He completed his PhD in: 2017

James Warren [: 00:01:42

Good afternoon.

Ruth Winden [: 00:01:44

Wonderful to have you, James. And let's start with the swimming because I know you're very disciplined. You are in the pool when most people have their breakfast or the alarm goes off. You're already in the pool six times a week, I believe.

James Warren [: 00:01:57

Yeah.

Ruth Winden [: 00:01:58

What is this all about?

James Warren [: 00:02:01

It goes back a lot of years. I started swimming at the age of four, continued it through my secondary school and college, and when I was younger, it was just a way of staying fit. But as I got to university, it was a good way to decompress and from the undergraduate years, then went to PhD. And that became even more valuable as a way to decompress after the challenges of doing a PhD. And then just since then, it's my way. Once I finish work, it allows me to go away and get into a good headspace and be a nice cut off between work and home life. And the advantage is, it allows me to eat as much chocolate as I want.

Ruth Winden [: 00:02:42

And not feel overly guilty! And come on, I know. James, you're always so humble. I mean, you are not just a swimmer who loves swimming. Come on, tell us. Didn't you?

James Warren [: 00:02:53

Yeah. So over the years, I've had the opportunity to represent Team England for competitive life saving and then just for pure swimming. I'm lucky to be part of a team that is full of other exceptional swimmers. And we've gone on to break both British, European and in one occasion, a world record back in 2015, in my age group. So I don't take all the credit for those records because it's always been part of a team. But I am lucky to be part of a very talented team across multiple age groups.

I think it's the discipline from the swimming that also helps with the career that I've chosen. Being able to time manage well, project manage every minute I have, is valuable. And I'm either recovering from something or planning the next bit. And I think it's just useful skills that have over the years have just really helped identify how important time is. And if we don't use it properly, it can be wasted. And being able to maximize what I do and that, for me, is where the swimming comes in, is I've always been goal driven, and targeting the records and things like that allowed me to continue when training got very repetitive. iIjuries, stress at work and things like that. Having that goal in a set period to do it in has always allowed me to just really focus my attentions when needed.

Ruth Winden [: 00:04:21

Yeah. And James, I mean, I always notice that about you. You're a busy man. You do your research, you do the swimming. You're very active in the early career researcher community. And we'll come back to that because I want to talk to you about how do you make time for this. But I think you say it's that discipline, the swimming. You're very good at cramming a lot into a very busy day and being very disciplined about the time you spend on what. I have to say, whenever I ask you, you're very clear, "yes, I can do it", or "no, I don't have time". I really appreciate that clarity.

Before we go into your career, I have to admit I'm not quite sure what it means when you say self-organizing biomaterials for tissue engineering. Can you just give us one or two sentence so we understand what you spend most of your day on?

James Warren [: 00:05:09

So the material that I specialize in is just a simple building block built of amino acids. And when we put it into conditions that you see normally in the body, they go from being in an aqueous liquid state to a jelly like state, and it's reversible. So depending on what conditions we pick, it can go back and forth between those two states and it's that reversibility. That is the importance in the medical applications, because we're able to inject these materials into the body or into the tissue, and it gelates and sits in within the tissue. And that's the promising part, is that we don't need surgical methods to introduce them. We can do it in a really minimally invasive way. These materials, when we say self-organizing, we mean that they structure themselves spontaneously depending on the certain parameters, like concentration, temperature, physical stimuli such as PH. But they are self controlled. Once they reach a certain point, is effectively a cascade effect. They then start to form these structures that then allow the gel to form, and that's where the self-organizing aspect comes in.

Ruth Winden [: 00:06:23

Right. So it potentially has a massive impact on public health medicine interventions.

James Warren [: 00:06:30

It's a really upcoming field at the moment. It's soft matter to the point where for medical devices, the ISO standards had to alter their protocols to include soft matter as recently as 2019. So it's a really hot area at the moment for medical device companies because of that ability to control the material properties far more.

Ruth Winden [: 00:06:57

Good for you. I want to go back to you because James and I, we've known each other since 2017, and when we met, I was helping your group of PhDs. You were all in year four looking at the transition from PhD: What is next for me? And what really struck me back then, James, was you were very open minded about exploring different opportunities. There were some people who said, "yeah, I know it's an academic career and postdoc" straight away, and others said, "oh, I want to go into consulting". You said, "I want to look at lots of different options because I'm not sure".

And that's something that I think is so valuable, having the courage at that pressure time in year four of your PhD to say, you know what? I want to have a good look around before I decide.

Do you want to take us back to that time and tell us a bit more how you came to that openness?

James Warren [: 00:07:48

Yeah, so at the end of my PhD, I was lucky enough to be offered a really short-term postdoctoral contract. So that was why I was writing up my thesis. It took the pressure away, and because I didn't have that pressure to get a job instantly, I was able to see where I wanted to go. I was able to see what training opportunities I could get. So I put a lot of it down to luck. I was lucky enough to be offered that position. That took a lot of the stress away, which I know a lot of final year PhD students don't always get. But for me, it was because of my background being chemistry and having to really adapt and be open minded with what research I had to learn and the areas I had to go into. I took that towards my career. I had to see what training opportunities, what avenues could I use my translatable skills in?

And I think again, I was lucky in my PhD that I had such excellent supervision from Professor Eileen Ingham and Professor John Fisher, who were very open with "if you can see some value in something, even if it's not immediate, go ahead for it". Because if you can use it in the future or it's some benefit that you can use in a lot of different applications. So that openness from them allowed me to look at where could I go.

I wasn't adamant I wanted to stay in academia. At that point, I was exposed to a bit more of the research from being in a postdoc, but I was also very aware that it's a very difficult career choice. And because at that point, I wasn't 100% certain I wanted to stay, as you said. I took a very open mind approach to where could I go, what could I do? No option was taken away from me until somebody said I couldn't do it for whatever reason, or I attempted and wasn't successful.

I think that I've carried on since having left for industry and come back. I think my mindset has gone that I do want to stay in academia. I enjoy the mental challenge and the stimulation that I get from thinking about my research area and the next project and trying to think about the next experiment and what it means. And for me, I have to be challenged both mentally and obviously from the swimming side, the physical challenge. And if I don't have that challenge, my concern is, would I get bored?

Ruth Winden [: 00:10:11

Yeah. James, can I just go back to something you said about you looked at different options you had that openness, it was also instilled into you from the leaders you had in your research group. You did go into industry, didn't you? And the fact that you did try things out and then decided to come back, does it feel a bit like, I know what people say, oh, it's always greener on the other side? Does that help you to now come back and say, you know what, I realize it really is academia, or what other factors came into play?

James Warren [: 00:10:45

So with industry, it was going to a consultancy firm. So, again, it was very diverse. Every project was different, which was the mental challenge side, but the process was very similar. The details might change, but the process was the same. I was unlucky in the sense that I was kind of a trial doing fully remote working when a lot of the team were in different countries. And that really challenged me to be able to work in a fully multidisciplinary team, but across different time zones. For me to see how I was during that period, that was in industry. I will say I hated it. I enjoyed it every time because I found a lot of skills again that I still use to this day. But where I was at that time and where the world was. I am not going to go into any politics or anything. But there was a big event that came at the end of 2019 that caused a lot of problems for the company and they had to make a decision of trying to shrink their UK team down. And I was a casualty of that decision.

So industry isn't always greener, but for me, if you go with the approach that you can always use something and even if it's a period of seeking clarification, if that career route is what you want, as long as you're open to try it, that, I think, is the biggest thing. Because if as long as you can go back and say, well, I didn't want to do that because of reasons one, two, three, you've still learned something. So it's not an invaluable experience, it's just you have to be willing to adapt. And I think that's where my open mindedness comes in, is that it might not be the right choice and I'll be the first to put my hands up saying that I spent six months doing the wrong thing, but it's guided me to where I am now.

Ruth Winden [: 00:12:42

Absolutely, isn't it? It's so much in careers, isn't it, about making sense of it, trying things out, learning from it. And I always say you're a better scientist now because you had that experience. also, I would guess, you're such a personable and socially active person for you to be stuck on your own somewhere and not seeing anyone, not having that interaction that you thrive on I could totally see that that wasn't the right choice. And it might be the right choice for other people, but it's about finding what works for you, isn't it?

So what then made you come back to Leeds? Because you can argue you could have gone anywhere, really, because medical engineers are in high demand industry experience, why then come back to Leeds?

James Warren [: 00:13:28

I came back during a period of unemployment and I was lucky enough again to be approached for a relatively short-term contract to carry on while I was trying to sort myself out after the quite big shock of what happened with the previous company.

And from then I carried on. And it sounds simple as that, using the skills that I previously had and the new ones I gained, I was able to quite quickly re-establish myself within the group. And that was, again, the success of my ability to pick up a lot of different things and carry them through. And that resulted in me be given multiple since that period, multiple postdoctoral contracts, again moving around different areas, working with different supervisors, but all working within that theme of the biomaterial.

Ruth Winden [: 00:14:22

And obviously you're a chemist by background. You came into engineering, I know that doctoral training program. It's interdisciplinary, so much to learn. And we have people from maths and engineering and chemistry and biology, and they all come together to become medical engineers.

And so you've also then tapped into lots of different parts of the university, haven't you? Because whenever I need to find people, I can go to James. "James, do you know anyone"? And you will, because you know a lot of people. You're very well known at the university.

And we also have to come back to that because I think one of the reasons why you're so well known is, of course, your research and collaborating with a lot of people, but also you're very active as a researcher and our researcher community.

But it's so good to hear you tried things out, it didn't quite work out, not a problem. You came in, found you got your foot back in the door and now you're thriving, you're doing lots of projects and you're a very stable and reliable and very welcome partner in our whole research community and the development programs we do.

And I wanted to ask you, why is that so important to you? Just as background, James sits on our ECR Steering Group committee. He is very active in the ECR groups in the Faculty of Biological Sciences. You are very active in iMBE (Institute of Medical and Biological Engineering). And I'm always amazed because so many people, when we ask them, can you get involved? Can you find the time? They say, no, I haven't got the time. It's so important to you, obviously, to be engaged. What is that driver behind it? James.

James Warren [: 00:16:05

I guess Open Research is that I have learnt to not be a specialist and be that multidisciplinary scientist. I'm the first to put my hand up, I won't know everything, but the more people you're involved with, the more people you connect with. And we're always told as academics and scientists, build your network, build that academic and that research network, because everybody has some skill that you can use or they want from you.

And I think that mindset of building your network doesn't have to be at conferences, it doesn't have to be purely through LinkedIn. A lot of it is just being sociable, going and having a talk with somebody. And as you mentioned, all these groups that I'm on, it's always been from trying to develop the connections. ECRs are quiet because we are research heavy, we do get stuck in the lab and we do get quite isolated and being able to build bridges between those groups is kind of where my ultimate aim is. I want to build a truly multidisciplinary, interdisciplinary culture because otherwise gone are the days in research where you can say it's purely biology, purely chemistry, purely physics. Science has now got to a stage where there are so many crossovers into different fields. And if you're not willing to branch out into those fields, the research will struggle to progress because you need the experience and the knowledge from these other people in different fields. And that's where my drive comes in, is that you can't know enough people, you can't know enough people that maybe in five years time can help or they can help in five minutes time. And it doesn't have to be in the lab, it can just be helping you do something quite simply as move a table and it's a lot easier if you know somebody personally, you can just ask that person, do you mind giving me five minutes? But if it's a stranger, it's always a little more difficult to try and get somebody to cooperate.

Ruth Winden [: 00:18:07

And obviously for us you're a fantastic supporter because we value your input so much, because you're so close to the researchers, you're a researcher yourself. And when we look at initiatives or want the perspectives of people so we can make the right decisions at the University of Leeds that support our researcher community, there are people we value so much. Because you know what? It's like you're never afraid to voice your opinions, which I think is really important because we work in partnership here and we want to hear the good and the bad and the ugly. And we also want to hear solutions. And you're certainly one of the people, James, if there's an issue, you always come up with solutions or we discuss solutions. And I think for me it's also a message of any researchers listening: institutions want to engage with their researchers.

And I wonder James, you're obviously picking up a lot of these influencing skills at higher level because on the steering group we have very senior academics on there, influencing, standing up to them, challenging them. How do you think these skills that you learn as being so active in the research community? Do you have a feel for how that can help you in your career development? And I realize this is a loaded question.

James Warren [: 00:19:25

I think for me it allows me to see an aspect of academia that isn't just research. There's so many things that go on in the background that early career researchers can get quite focused on their research and what to do next. But we all have some influence and seeing that senior academics are also struggling with workloads or trying to do this, that and other, it's quite having that opportunity to ask people in far senior positions than what I'd normally be exposed to.

But seeing the difficulties of trying to run such a big institution, they are problematic, there are problems, but everybody can help to some degree.

And asking what can I do as an individual is so key that if everybody has that approach of trying to help one time a week, a lot of the things that we find difficult would suddenly become doable.

I'm not saying that that will change overnight, but that mindset of wanting to know what's happening. And as researchers, it seems strange that some people are so isolated and don't want to know what's going on in the background, that we're always told to answer, to ask questions, that is how we're trained. And to not do that in the place you work seems counterintuitive.

And I am lucky to have people that are happy. And I know you came back earlier in this conversation about finding opportunities and always being open-minded. To any researchers that are listening, I know the university gives a lot of opportunities and it is sometimes quite hard to see what's valuable to you. But ask somebody, ask your PI, ask colleagues, do you think this is something that I could do? Do you think I'll gain something from it? But always ask, do you think I should do it for you? Because if you're representing them, don't just do it off your own back. Try and see some reason behind it. And if that is because you're quite vocal and happy to challenge, then you are going to benefit people. And I think that's the message I want to get across to people from this is there are lots of opportunities, but you have to be willing to take them up. You can't just expect people to give you them. You need to want to do something and go find them. There's always plenty that people will find for you and help you get, but they just need to know you're interested.

Ruth Winden [: 00:21:44

And I think what you say about we all have a role to play in creating that collaborative research culture, I totally agree. We can't change the systemic challenges in the sector, but we can make a difference where we are in our immediate environment, with our colleagues, with our community. And I really value that you always stand up for the ECRs and I wish there were more of you. So let me ask you briefly, because we're coming almost to the end of our time. I'm not asking you what's next for you, James, because I know when you're early career researcher think, oh, I don't know yet. I mean, unless you know something I don't know yet and you want to share.

James Warren [: 00:22:28

No, sadly, there's still the openness, is trying to find opportunities to carry on my research. I'm lucky again to be really supported by senior academics, professional members within the university and FBS and Engineering. But again, it's down to what I want to do and as long as I'm making it clear to people what I want to do, the support is there, whether I want to stay in academia or if I do want to leave again and go to something in industry or maybe research orientated. So I don't currently know what I want to do next. My immediate plan is to carry on attempting to pursue my own academic career. But I'm very aware that that is a very challenging career choice. And for other researchers that are trying this, just keep persevering. That's all you can do and that's being pragmatic is that there's a lot of effort goes in and there's a tiny bit of luck and the right timing. And sadly, if the luck is not there, don't be downhearted. It's not failing. It's just finding what next, find that opportunity next. And if you ask the right questions with the people around you, they'll help you find that next step.

Ruth Winden [: 00:23:50

James, these are such wise words. Perfect ending for our conversation. It's been such a joy. And no, we'll stay in touch and, you know, if you need support, you know where you can get it. So have a great week and speak to you soon. Bye bye.

James Warren [: 00:24:04

Goodbye. See you later.

Introduction [: 00:24:06

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