(S4E3) Becoming A Postgraduate Researcher in Mid Career - Marianne Talbot in conversation with Ruth Winden

Introduction [: 00:00:04

Welcome to the Research Culture Uncovered podcast, where in every episode we explore what is research culture and what should it be. You'll hear thoughts and opinions from a range of contributors to help you change research culture into what you want it to be.

Ruth Winden [: 00:00:27

Welcome to episode three in season four that focuses on research careers. My name is Ruth Winden and I'm the Careers with Research Consultant at the University of Leeds. One of the absolute joys of my role is that I get to know the most wonderful people who have a clear vision and a compelling reason to do research. My guest today is a highly accomplished education consultant who has decided later in life to do a PhD. As we were discussing the rewards and challenges of experienced professionals coming into the university sector to embark on a PhD, we thought our discussion points would be good to share, as so called mature postgraduate researchers are actually a large cohort in universities, but they don't always get the visibility and support they need. So without further ado, I'd very much like to welcome Marianne Talbot.

Marianne Talbot [: 00:01:24

Hello, Ruth, nice to be here.

Ruth Winden [: 00:01:26

Yeah, Marianne, you and I, we've had a number of conversations and I wanted to thank you for that because it's so good to understand more about your perspective. I have a bit of a soft spot for mature PGRs because when I came to this country, I was called mature at the tender age of 27. And I always felt a little bit like the odd one out as I was surrounded by 21 year olds who had a slightly different approach to life than me because I was a few years older. And so I thought at the university we have a large cohort of mature PGRs, and you and I had conversations about the pros, the cons, the joys, the challenges. And so I thought, let's have a conversation together, Marianne, and see what we can share. So, over to you. Tell us a bit more about your research to start with.

Marianne Talbot [: 00:02:22

Okay, so my research is looking at the impact, hopefully positive, of a very particular kind of professional development that teachers in secondary schools are offered. Actually, it's offered beyond secondary schools. And I have learners coming from all sorts of places who work in educational assessment who want to take this qualification, which is to become a chartered education assessor. Being engaged in the research community in that way is those light bulb moments when someone says something or you read something in a paper that really resonates with not just my current research, although that's lovely, of course, but with my experience. And it validates what I've been learning across the years about educational assessment or about the psychology of teaching and learning and assessing. And I love those light bulb moments. That's part of what motivates me and keeps me going and keeps me engaged as well. So that's also a really important part of why and how I do this.

Ruth Winden [: 00:03:21

And I hear loud and clear from you, Marianne, having that lived experience gives you different access to the theory and the discussions. I mean, I find that in the careers field, because I have been in the field for so long, I can relate to the theory differently than when I started out. And that's one of the advantages of having a lot of experience when you come to these things. So tell me a little bit more about what are the challenges? I mean, do you feel like the odd one out? I mean, that's the workshop I run at the university because I felt the odd one out, and I hear that description often. Oh, I feel a bit like the odd one out, and I don't want to cement that perception. But is there something about it?

Marianne Talbot [: 00:04:04

There's definitely something about it. I mean, intellectually, I know I'm not the odd one out because I've met numerous other "mature" and PGRs at Leads, so I know they're there. And that's not just in the School of Education, but in other schools as well, which is great. But sometimes I know I'm the only mature PGR in a session and sometimes that's absolutely fine and great and I can say as much or as little as I want to, but I am conscious sometimes I've got maybe a lot more to say than those who aren't mature PGRs, and I can completely get that. I completely understand that because they're not keeping their powder dry. They just haven't got that depth of experience yet to be able to speak up or have maybe even coherent thoughts about some of the things they're being asked to talk about. Whereas I have it. It is really great sometimes when I'm not the only mature PGR in a session and there's a number of us and we can all bring a wide variety of experiences to the table. And that is fantastic and I hope gives the non mature PGRs something to aspire to, and to realize that a PhD is a great thing, but there's actually lots of life that you need to get under your belt as well to be probably a really successful professional. And I'm not talking about academia here, I'm talking about the more commercial side of the world. So sorry, have I answered your question there?

Ruth Winden [: 00:05:38

Yeah, no, absolutely. And it's interesting because my oldest, who did psychology, there were quite a lot of mature undergraduates with him and I remember him complaining about: they always sit in the front row and they know everything and it's really annoying because we are young and we haven't had those experiences and they're just always, always there. And it was interesting because I obviously have a very different perspective being on the other side, but it's creating that community. And I think I often also look at the younger ones and think, what can I learn from them?

Marianne Talbot [: 00:06:16

Absolutely. And I do every time learn something from I mean, as a trainer, which is what most of my paid work is these days, I know what it's like to have a room full of people who don't say anything and who won't engage. It is like pulling teeth sometimes. And sometimes you only need that one person to be brave and make a contribution and it sets the ball rolling and that's really, really valuable, vital in most instances. But you do need that one person to be brave and it's often the person with the most experience in the room. And I completely understand that. But I think setting a good example, being a role model is actually part of what I am and what any mature PGR probably needs to be. You don't want to be the sulky one sat at the back not saying anything. You want to be the eager one, as you say, in the front row. Yes, I can talk about that. Maybe not till the cows come home, but at least to get the conversation going.

Ruth Winden [: 00:07:19

Yeah, and you're always good at that because I noticed that when you come into our sessions, I always say. Phew, what a relief, Marianne is here. We're bound to have some very constructive questions and also challenges, which I absolutely love. You're good at challenging me and that's what I really also appreciate.

Marianne Talbot [: 00:07:34

I love a good question. I mean, I think that's part of the natural curiosity, isn't it? What's the point of doing any of this if we're not going to ask questions, even if we don't like the answers or understand them. I think we're kind of on a bound to keep asking questions.

Ruth Winden [: 00:07:48

Absolutely. Now we talk a little bit about being part of that PGR community. You're obviously also one of the PGRs who is not necessarily on campus as much as others. You're not part of a doctoral training program because as I understand it, you're self-funded and you don't meet with colleagues every day. So what is that experience like?

Marianne Talbot [: 00:08:14

I spend a lot of time in teams and zoom meetings, but that's okay. Not a huge amount of time, I have to say. But generally when I meet with people, it's online. There's very few people at Leeds that I've met face to face. Really interesting. And it's quite exciting when I do arrange to meet someone face to face. But, I guess it's about making sure that I put myself out there to some extent because I know I'm not able to bump into someone in a coffee shop or say at the end of a lecture, in a lecture theater, shall we go for a coffee and have a chat about what we've just been hearing about? I can't do that. So I've made myself, and this is not in any way a problem, because I am curious about all of these things. I've attended various as, you know, careers development sessions. I've been to a lot of the well-being support service sessions about things like imposter syndrome and so on, which really interests me, but have also enabled me to feel like part of that community, research community. So I do spend a lot of time on screens talking with people. I've put myself forward for the Hillary Place Papers Editorial board, which is the journal the School of Education produces at least once a year. That's really interesting and a way to get to know people quite well, I think, as well as obviously helping my kind of research profile and skills associated with that. But there are other things beyond Leeds that I've been able to get involved in as well, which is actually attending real in person conferences. Ruth, very exciting. I've done a couple and I've got a couple more lined up, so that's really nice, actually. Now that conferences have resumed in person, I can put myself out there, I've presented, but also just meeting other people and having that chance to network and make connections and hear about other people's research is really valuable, I think. And I've got involved with the Leeds Research Crucible programme. Yeah. Another group of people committed to looking at the culture of research within the university and how that could be improved or should be improved, maybe; and led a project related to that, which is fantastic. Not an amazing way. I did meet a lot of people through it, but because my project, I was working with someone I already knew. I wouldn't say it's a way of necessarily, for me, establishing a new collaborative working relationship, but I think others have and I think that's really exciting to see. So lots beyond the kind of maybe everyday research activities, which has really excited me, actually. And I find an invaluable, if not even more valuable, part of the experience of being a PGR at Leeds.

Ruth Winden [: 00:10:59

And it's so clear to me you've made such an effort in creating those communities because that's how we met, because you're very engaging, you don't shy away from getting in touch, which I absolutely love, and it means you are engaged in lots of different parts of the university and beyond in your field. And that's so good to hear because one of the complaints I hear often is "I don't have a sense of belonging because I'm not on campus". And what you've just described is that you've actually created that sense of belonging, at least to some extent, mostly virtually. But I actually think that's also a fantastic opportunity in way to do t hat we didn't have before.

Marianne Talbot [: 00:11:43

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it is poignant though, isn't it, that most of what I've described is not with my school, it's not within the School of Education. I feel less attached to the School of Education because I'm not physically there, I think. So it's quite an interesting area for me because I really want to feel part of that School of Education community, but it doesn't seem to quite cater for the mature PGR in maybe the way that it could do. Whereas I think overall, the university has quite a lot going on that I can engage with. But it's not school related, it is university related, and that's not necessarily a criticism. It's just the way it is at the moment, I think. I do think there's scope for improvement, though.

Ruth Winden [: 00:12:32

So what ideas do you have? Because I'm always keen to hear from the researchers themselves, what ideas do you have, Marianne, to help you feel more embedded, a part of a department or a school?

Marianne Talbot [: 00:12:49

For me, looking back my first year, which was the academic year 2021 into 22, there was a fortnightly meeting of PGRs in the school, virtually, not physically in the school. It was held in Teams. There was no expectation that you would attend, but you were very welcome to attend. It was facilitated by a fairly senior member of staff in the school and there was usually someone talking a little bit about their current research, or there was a focus on presenting at conferences or preparing for transfer. There was some kind of topic that would be discussed, but equally, you could bring any topic to the table and talk about anything that was kind of worrying you or affecting you at that point. And it was a fairly safe space. There was never more than maybe 10 or 12 PGRs in the virtual room. That hasn't happened this academic year, because I think the move back to doing stuff on campus, doing stuff in person, has kind of maybe overwhelmed the demand for the virtual stuff. So I think that's possibly why I felt slightly more disconnected this year. And I do think if we're going to continue allowing people like me to live and work more than 100 miles away from campus, therefore it's not realistic to expect us to turn up very often, then we have to support those kind of virtual sessions as well. And I don't just mean stick it in the calendar and expect the PGRs to manage it themselves. It needs to be led and facilitated by a member of staff and probably a fairly senior member of staff, to act as a bit of a draw and a bit of someone to actually manage the process. That's one thing. And the other thing that drives me slightly crackers well, maybe some people would say I sound slightly crackers anyway, is that we get lots of invitations to talks in the school, lots and lots, at least two or three a week, but we tend to get the invitations two or three days in advance. And if you're not on campus, you're not living in Leeds, that is not feasible to attend. Very unlikely that you're going to be able to drop everything and travel to Leeds in 48 hours' time. Yet there must be a program of t hese things set up in advance. Someone, somewhere must have sight of this. And I recognize that last minute changes might happen and last minute things might get added in, but not every week, week after week after week, surely. So I think having that planned program of activities doesn't have to be academic papers. It could be anything in the school planned wise, available at the beginning of each term, maybe, would really help people who are working remotely plan when they can come to campus and can engage in something academic, something social, one of each, two of each over the course of a few days. I think that might make a bit of a difference.

Ruth Winden [: 00:15:39

Yes. Really good points here. Because back in my days, and I'm going back decades now, and when we were on campus all the time, we didn't know anything else. How often did I walk past these walls with posters on? I'm a curious, nosy person. So there were all these posters and things, and you'd write them down and then you'd show up. And now we have technology, and how can we use that technology to have people be part of a community who are not necessarily on campus? That's a really good point. And then also the point you raise about there's so much you can learn from each other, other PGRs going for same experience. Even so, oh, I'm not the only one, or how did you resolve this? Or what are you discussing? Or what are you researching? Is there any link between what we do? This is sort of the joy of doing research, isn't it? And I hear you say having more of that organized by the university is really important because you have the taste of it and you really love to gain something, and now you're missing it. So that's a really good point.

Marianne Talbot [: 00:16:47

Yeah. And there's a real strength in having the newer PGRs meet those who are a year or two or three more on in their journey. And it allows the newer PGRs to learn from them. But equally, it allows the more experienced PGRs to reflect on their experiences and how did I do this, how did I manage this? And I think that's a really important skill, actually, for any PGR to have as they progress through their research, the ability to reflect back. Yeah, absolutely.

Ruth Winden [: 00:17:16

So it helps you reflect and recognize things. It's a bit like when I mentor younger colleagues. For me, it's all pretty obvious, but sometimes, oh yeah, this is how I do it, and this is the reason why I do it. I just don't even think about it anymore. It's just intuitive.

Marianne Talbot [: 00:17:31

Great.

Ruth Winden [: 00:17:32

Now, one thing I wanted to talk to you about, and I know that is something that I hear many mature PGRs share with me, and that is this new experience of being a seasoned professional, someone with a certain standing, status, success, recognition. Then you come into the university sector to do PhD, and suddenly you're almost like a beginner again, but at the same time, you have all that experience. And is there something that the university can do to help recognize people as they are? Because it must be quite conflicting to think, on the one hand, I am an experienced professional, I have a lot of experience, and sometimes, I would guess more practical experience, for instance, of education, than academics who've been researching education all their lives. So how can the university encompass that and appreciate and benefit from that experience?

Marianne Talbot [: 00:18:35

I think that's a really tricky one, actually. And I know I've probably mentioned this to you once or twice before, Ruth, about induction, and I think this comes down to asking people at induction, not just saying, you need to know about X, Y and Z, but saying, do you know about X, Y and Z? Because if you do, don't worry about going to this session. But if you want to know more about Y, go to this session. And if you don't know anything about Z, definitely go to this session. I felt that I didn't really have an induction. It was a bit hit and miss. And I know people say, well, it's all in Minerva, but if you don't know it's all in Minerva, how on earth are you going to find out? So I think the induction for any PGR is critical, I think, but maybe for mature PGRs, it could be a bit more nuanced. And obviously we haven't got time to go into the detail of that here, but an example might be the modules that we're encouraged to take as PGRs. We don't have to do them, but we're encouraged to audit them. But there's no real explanation of the rationale for that. Or is it more important to do module one or module two? Or are some more important than others? And I think that kind of discursive text induction would be really helpful. It can be a video, it can be whatever, but something to help people understand what they're letting themselves in for as well, and what they have to prioritize over those first few weeks and months. And I think that would set aside quite a lot of what you described about the kind of the anxiety almost, of feeling like a beginner, because you would feel more in control, or I would have felt more in control of what I was doing and also what I was not doing. I don't need to worry about data management because I can do that in my sleep kind of thing. I need to know what the rules are for doing it in a university, but I don't need to go to a kind of six week course about tit. That kind of thing. And I think the recognition from the university that mature PGRs probably don't need to do some of this stuff, but they do need to know that they need to be aware of it and to put themselves forward as saying, yes, I don't feel the need to do another course about this. I feel confident in my knowledge about whatever it is. So that's just one small area. I mean, it's a big area, but it's one small suggestion, I guess.

Ruth Winden [: 00:21:01

That's really helpful. It's basically like an MOT almost. Yes, almost. Because I think the university is obviously trying that every PGR needs to do X-Y-Z because we need to make sure you have all the foundations and you're aware of all the aspects that you need to consider when you're an active researcher. And I hear you say, well, but some mature PGRs actually have a lot of experience that is equivalent and they've covered that already. But there is no way to really showcase that or make people aware. And so you go through lots of things that you might not actually need. I know that you say, well, some of the stuff I could actually teach, but that personalized support. I get that. Can we talk a little bit about careers? Because that's obviously my driver here. As you came to the PGR, did you have thoughts about the validation? I get that the validation from the PhD. You said that early on. Marianne, how does my community, my clients, my colleagues, how do they see a PhD? And that recognition of your expertise through a PhD. Is there anything else that motivated you? What are your hopes and expectations from doing the PGR?

Marianne Talbot [: 00:22:26

Yeah, I mean, my really basic motivation is that I'm really interested in the question that underlies my research. It's really close to my heart. I get very invested in the courses that I lead and the participants in those courses and then mentoring them through the process of becoming a Chartered Educational Assessor. But then, by and large, we don't tend to keep in touch, so I don't really know what happens to them after that. And I think the Chartered Institute doesn't really know either. So actually it's a real motivation for them to understand through my research what impact the work we're doing has. I'm really hopeful that it's positive, but I don't know that until I do the research, I won't know that. So it's really hard to talk about aspirations in that sense as well, because if the research says, yeah, it's great, everyone makes a real impact, it's all very positive, then I kind of have to go, oh, okay, we'll just carry on doing what we're doing. Then if it's patchier, if there's less impact or less obvious impact, maybe less consistent impact, then there's another job of work for me to do there, isn't there? I guess it's about it all comes down to, I suppose, the courses that I lead for the Chartered Institute and ensuring that they're the highest quality they possibly could be, that they are doing what we say on the tin and if they're not, how do I change that? How do I improve that? It's not just me. I co-lead them with another course leader as well. So we're a little mini team, but until we know the outcomes of my research, it's really hard to know how can we finesse this, how can we refine it, what do we need to do to improve? I'm fairly sure that some of our current participants would tell us, but I think it's really hard until you've got the chartered status and you're some way down the line with that, to really talk about what the impact has been rather than what you expect it to be.

Ruth Winden [: 00:24:23

But it's very clear to me that you're using the PhD to maximize what you're already doing and to be of even more service to the people who you've been supporting and training and helping to become fantastic assessors and highly skilled in that area of work. And that's a very strong personal connection, isn't it? Because some people choose something that has got nothing to do with them personally, but for you, there is your professional life.

Marianne Talbot [: 00:24:55

That's another reason for now being the right time to come back right to where we started at the beginning of this conversation. I couldn't have done this particular bit of research until now because I wasn't in the right place professionally, let alone personally, to be able to ask the right questions, to be able to have access to the right people and the right data. So, yes, it's very much tied into my professional life, the research is tied into my professional life and vice versa. And actually, sometimes it's really hard to see the boundaries between the two, which is both a pro and a con. I have to say.

Ruth Winden [: 00:25:32

I can see that. It's so exciting to learn more about your research, Marianne. And as we are coming to the end of our conversation, I have one last question for you, but before that, is there anything that you wanted to share? Because I know you always have a lot on your mind and a lot to share, something we haven't touched upon yet.

Marianne Talbot [: 00:25:51

Well, it sort of links to my final comment then, actually, about boundaries, which is priorities, and managing, studying and researching alongside paid work occasionally. But also I volunteer, I'm a school governor, I work in the station garden down the road. So it's just about balancing and prioritizing all those things. As a mature PGR it's probably a bit trickier than as a non mature PGR. And I think that's something that anyone considering doing a PhD really has to think about, how will I manage? How will this fit in? Some things have had to go, and that's fine because I'm hopefully going to be able to pick them up again once I've got my PhD. But I think that idea of prioritization has to be kind of part of the thought process of planning to undertake a PhD later in life.

Ruth Winden [: 00:26:42

Yeah, that's a fantastic tip here, because I was about to say last question, Marianne. What is your top tip for any mature professional who thinks I think it's just time to do that PhD? So one is really one is about prioritization.

Marianne Talbot [: 00:26:58

Yeah, absolutely. About the prioritization. Also, it really needs to be about something you love, I think, because if it's not, it might be really hard to keep the motivation levels up and to keep going. There are times when I found it hard. And I love my topic, and I'm sure that's true of almost every PGR, actually. But if it's not something you love, I think it would be really hard to plow through what seems like the endless reading at times. And if you're not motivated, why do it? So I think it has to be something that really is close to your heart.

Ruth Winden [: 00:27:36

Yeah. And one day we will celebrate when you have passed your Viva. It's been such a joy, Marianne. And all I can say is, please keep coming to our sessions. Please keep engaging, because it's always so rewarding. And, yes, I'm following your journey and I also know I'm following you on LinkedIn, so there's no escape from me. Thank you so much, Marianne.

Marianne Talbot [: 00:27:58

Thank you, Ruth. Thank you. Bye bye.

Ending [: 00:28:02

Thanks for listening to the Research Culture Uncovered podcast. Please subscribe so you never miss out on our brand new episodes. And if you're enjoying the discussions, give us some love by dropping a five star rating and written review as it helps other research culturalists find us. And please share with a friend and show them how to subscribe. Thanks for listening and here's to you and your Research culture.